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ArtLady1981
01-09-2013, 06:08 PM
If a knitting booklet is out-of-print...and let's say the booklet copyright date is 1973...when do copyright laws not apply anymore?

When can a pattern in that booklet be scanned and shared with another knitter?

I vaguely remember hearing that a copyright pattern lasts for xx number of years...something like 25 or 50.

Does anyone know more about this? :??

The reason I ask...I knit a Baby Hoodie pattern back in 1977...but I didn't own the booklet...my girlfriend's mother did...and we were able to borrow the booklet from her mom. I have some tattered notes with the pattern directions, but not the booklet. I've knit this baby hoodie a dozen times over the years using my tattered notebook pages. I wish I owned the booklet!

Recently another knitter at Ravelry asked me where she could find the pattern. So I began an investigation, using Google Search. I found one booklet on Ebay (!) and it's a bid auction, starting at $8. So I placed a bid...and right now I'm the high bidder with $15.50. My max bid is $20 and that's it for me. I'm done. I won't raise my bid over the $20, and even $20 is prolly ridiculous, but I'm sorta emotionally attached to this pattern, having knit it for my babies way back in the late 70's.

But I'm curious...if I win the bid...can I scan the pattern and share it with this little German gal? I told her about the Ebay auction, and gave her first crack at it...but I guess Ebay.com is USA only...and German citizens have Ebay.de, and her Ebay has a copy of the booklet priced at $40, which we both agree is ridiculous. So she is jonesing around to get a free (shared) pattern from someone, and from what she said, someone might do this for her.

I'm still curious about old old old copyrighted and out-of-print patterns. :think:

Antares
01-09-2013, 06:25 PM
This site seems to explain it fairly well: http://inventors.about.com/od/copyrights/a/expiration.htm

In general copyrights expire 70 years after the author's death. I was thinking that it was 75 years since the piece was published, but that's not the case.

ArtLady1981
01-09-2013, 06:33 PM
This site seems to explain it fairly well: http://inventors.about.com/od/copyrights/a/expiration.htm In general copyrights expire 70 years after the author's death. I was thinking that it was 75 years since the piece was published, but that's not the case.


I found this statement at the link you provided, and it would seem to apply to a 1973 booklet w/ knitting designs:

Published from 1964 to 1977 - When published with notice - copyright protection lasts 28 years for first term; automatic extension of 67 years for second term for a total of 95 years.

So I am translating it to mean that the 1973 booklet of designs will be protected from scanning, copying and sharing until the year 2068.

The paragraph in blue doesn't stipulate anything about the designer's death. :??
(edited to add: the death of the designer is mentioned regarding things published after 1978...the leaflet I'm looking into was published in 1973 with a slightly different set of rules...death of designer not relevant)

Of course, the booklet isn't a person, but the designs were created by an individual or a team of individuals. The booklet I'm referring to is a McCalls publication, but I don't suppose that's relevant.

And then there is the teensy few words on that copyright info page that say:
"If not renewed, now in public domain."

So if McCalls renews their copyrights...the lock on the designs will go on until my great-great-great-great-great grandchildren are knitters! In other words, the designs are lost. The original publication has disintegrated and the designs have become dust, and are gone forever. If they cannot be shared electronically for preservation, the hard copies are gone. Done. It's sorta a shame.

Jan in CA
01-09-2013, 06:34 PM
That isnt always true though. It's a fuzzy area.

I found some info here about it in the questions toward the bottom-
http://www.knitty.com/ISSUEfall03/FEATcopyright.html

I have this bookmarked-
http://yarnaholic.wordpress.com/the-copyright-faq-for-knitters/

And the specific question is sorta answered here-
http://yarnaholic.wordpress.com/the-copyright-faq-for-knitters/2/

ArtLady1981
01-09-2013, 07:34 PM
Thanks for these links, too, Jan! One of the links provided a pdf copy of copyright information, and I downloaded it, and then uploaded it into my Google Drive. So now I'll be armed with a clear picture of copyright FAQ's next time someone asks me to share a pattern that's out-of-print.

I'm rather curious to see what the McCalls booklet displays regarding its copyrights.
Well, that is IF my max bid of $20 wins the auction.

BTW, the booklet I'm after is:

McCall's Makes It Just For Baby: 65 Things to Knit, Crochet, Sew,1973

ArtLady1981
01-09-2013, 08:19 PM
Over at Ravelry, in the Pattern page for the Hooded Ribbed Jacket seen in that 1973 McCalls booklet, I posted my 2 cents in the comments section:

"It’s a crying shame that McCall’s has allowed this design to become lost, and unavailable to 21st Century knitters. With copyright laws that can lock up the design for 95 years from the publishing date, and maybe longer if McCall’s extends the copyright…it makes the design totally unavailable to 21st Century knitters. There are a few vintage copies of the Leaflet/booklet found on Ebay auction/bid basis only, but this hardly qualifies as a viable resource."

I may write to McCall's as well.

Jan in CA
01-09-2013, 08:22 PM
Yeah, I think out should write McCalls!

ArtLady1981
01-09-2013, 08:32 PM
I wrote to McCall's via their website, specifically found in their Customer Service.

McCall.com>click McCall's>click Customer Service tab>click How to Reach Us>then fill in your name, email> and in the drop down box, select Discontinued Patterns>enter your comment or question>SUBMIT.


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ArtLady1981
01-09-2013, 08:36 PM
The Out-of-Print designs issue is an ongoing PITA. So I thought this one time, I'd take it a step further and write to the publisher who is guilty of locking up a pattern design and letting it slip into the Abyss due to copyright protection.

In my comment/question to McCalls, I specifically asked IF the booklet in mention is under copyright protection. (first things first) And if so, can they provide assistance with obtaining a copy of (specific design). And if not, I commented that it's a shame that copyright protection on out-of-print booklets & designs makes a relevant design unavailable to 21st Century knitters. Furthermore, many knitters at Ravelry are in the same line of thinking, and are searching for this (specific design.)

I did mention Ravelry, because I've seen several comments posted by knitters who are tearing their hair out, looking for this Hooded Ribbed Jacket which is under lock-and-key in the ABYSS of Copyright Protection.

Jan in CA
01-09-2013, 09:09 PM
There are many vintage patterns that should be available to the public domain. I'll send them something when I get back on the computer.

DavidSydney63
01-10-2013, 04:59 AM
I might just say that copyright laws are different between Australia and American. We have a blanket 75 year after the death of the author.

mojo11
01-10-2013, 03:17 PM
Intellectual property laws are ... well, confusing is probably the most polite way to say it. The last thing I remember hearing regarding copyrights was "life of the creator plus 50 years". Patents are a whole different thing, but are renewable for... I forget how long.

Since almost everything in this mod'n world is now created by more than one person, the "life of the creator" becomes a very muddy issue. And it probably got even muddier when software moved out from under the umbrella of patent law and under copyright law. (Stupid since most software will be obsolete WAY before either a patent or copyright would expire.)

Hopefully your query reaches someone at the publisher that actually knows the answer to your question. My guess is that (correct or not) they'll tell you it's protected, and the design will simply fall into The Abyss. Happens all the time.

GrumpyGramma
01-10-2013, 05:02 PM
I wonder how many changes it would take to make it a different pattern and therefore exempt from the copyright laws.

mojo11
01-10-2013, 05:19 PM
I wonder how many changes it would take to make it a different pattern and therefore exempt from the copyright laws.

Interesting question, but I would think that it would have to be "materially different" in order to win if it ever got that far. And in this case, "materially different" sort of defeats the purpose. Because... well, this was the design you wanted in the first place!

ArtLady1981
01-10-2013, 10:12 PM
I wonder how many changes it would take to make it a different pattern and therefore exempt from the copyright laws.

Well, that's certainly food for thought, Gramma....however, I think mojo11 nailed it. Significant changes (that would protect you in a court of law) would defeat the purpose.

ArtLady1981
01-10-2013, 10:18 PM
I received a message (reply) from McCall's Customer Service Dept today. Very nice...within 24 hrs.

First, here is my original message to them:

McCall's Makes It Just For Baby: 65 Things to Knit, Crochet, Sew,1973 containing theHooded Ribbed Jacket pattern: Are the designs copyright protected? The publication isout-of-print, therefore the designs are lost and unavailable to 21st Century knitters except via thesecondary market with is hardly a viable resource. There are numerous 21st Century knitters atRavelry.com who are looking for some of the more relevant designs featured in this out-of-printbooklet, specifically the Hooded Ribbed Jacket. I am very conscious of copyright protection, andwant to locate this pattern through legal channels only. Thank you for your answer and/or
assistance. Sincerely, Dollyce Beeman

Here is their reply:


Hi Dollyce Beeman,
We are very sorry but, we only go back 4 years and the pattern you have inquired has been discontinued and no remaining copies are available and we only go back three years for discarded patterns, please try our online catalog atwww.mccall.com (http://www.mccall.com)for a similar pattern or you can try one of the following websites for a pattern service that may be able to find patterns that you are looking for: Ebay.com/oldpatterns.com/sewingpatterns.com
Your interest in our patterns is appreciated and we wish you luck with your pattern search.
Sincerely,
Kim Lettis
Customer Service
800-255-2762 ext 488
785-776-4041 ext 488
kiml@prod.mccall.com

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So now any of you may write to McCall's if you wish to get a more satisfying answer regarding OUT-OF-PRINT patterns and the copyright LOCK & KEY. You will notice, she sidestepped the question ARE THESE DESIGNS COPYRIGHT PROTECTED?

We have a name, number and email address, as seen above in the reply.

Jan in CA
01-10-2013, 10:26 PM
I've had places completely ignore my question before, too. I usually write them back.

GrumpyGramma
01-10-2013, 11:18 PM
Geeze, you could get the impression it's a matter of national security or something. I guess politicians don't have a corner on the market when it comes to saying nothing worthwhile and not answering a question. :zombie:

ArtLady1981
01-10-2013, 11:28 PM
Geeze, you could get the impression it's a matter of national security or something. I guess politicians don't have a corner on the market when it comes to saying nothing worthwhile and not answering a question. :zombie:

I'll tell ya one thing, Gramma...if you ever had a neurotic designer turn loose on you...

...it's almost like as if it was a matter of national security! No, I take that back...it's worse than a matter of national security! If someone impinges on her/his MONEY and INCOME...it's do or die time.

And I do believe that many of today's designers have a 'net' that hunts and scavenges for mentions of their designs. I think if I emailed a pdf pattern to my girlfriend, and she knit it and posted it anywhere...the designer would become aware of it...and comparing your identity with her list of PAID CUSTOMERS....she'd wonder where you got your hands on the pdf. Some designers would have the unmitigated temerity to outright email you, asking about it.

The internet has changed everything these days. It allows us to cheat designer out of his/her income by way of electronic sharing of pdfs...and it allows her to stalk us.

It can get creepy.

:pout:

Like for instance, if I gave the name of a neurotic designer that has stalked me...she'd prolly know what I am saying about her by tomorrow morning. She's that neurotic, and crazy, and mean.

My sin? She didn't like my comments in my Ravelry notebook. She thought I was saying too much about the pattern when I talked about my modifications, plans, etc. in my own Ravelry project notes. She thinks other folks will troll the internet looking for snippets of her patterns to put together the pattern without buying it. She's absolutely nuts.

So who wants to roll the dice and have a crazy designer on your butt forever more by sharing a copyrighted pattern with someone else? I've even had thoughts (when someone private messages me over at Ravelry, asking me to "share" a pattern that isn't "free") that perhaps its a a designer's spy!

GrumpyGramma
01-10-2013, 11:35 PM
*shudder*

The thought of making something and selling it and being stalked as you say is enough to keep me from selling anything...even if I get good enough someone would buy it. Creepy and scary.

mojo11
01-11-2013, 10:09 AM
She thinks other folks will troll the internet looking for snippets of her patterns to put together the pattern without buying it.

I see it like this: Unless you invented the knit stitch and the purl stitch, you're building on someone else's work. There is no such thing as an "original" pattern any more, it's all been done. And no matter how unique you might think your particular combination of knits and purls is, someone else has already done it -- and very likely someone else in future will do it again.

People like that are usually a tempest in a teapot and if you call the bluff they'll fold like a cheap shirt. BUT. When you're dealing with a soulless corporation with dozens of lawyers on retainer, it gets a little dicier. That said, unless you were mass producing the item for sale, you're probably not worth their time and money to prosecute. In THAT way, you're better off dealing with McCall's than Madame Psycho Head Case.

But getting back to sharing the pattern with your pal, you could always go old school and print it out and mail it. It isn't completely untraceable, but it isn't out there in permanent archival status on a mail server either.

ArtLady1981
01-11-2013, 01:09 PM
Great input, mojo! :thumbsup:

Madame Psycho is irrational enough to make one's life miserable for months, emailing, messaging, threatening. It's really quite horrid how she treats customers who have plunked down their money for her pdf's. I own about ten. I'm sure I'm not the only customer she's terrorizes. I've determined to report her to the Ravelry higher-up's next tinge she harasses me in the smallest way. Plus, I've actually since read that Ravelers can say whatever they want about a design they're knitting in their personal project notes. Don't know if that extends to the group forums. I left Madame Psycho's Fan Group a long time ago. She jumped down my throat for asking a question about a sweater I was knitting. I was stuck. (there actually turned out to be a small pattern error fire my size). She deleted my question, and messages a nasty note saying questions have to be submitted via her website Q&A. She also claimed that in describing my question, in detailing how and where I was stuck, I revealed too much pattern information. Really??? (btw, I did not reveal much!)

mojo11
01-11-2013, 01:24 PM
Great input, mojo! :thumbsup:

Madame Psycho is irrational enough to make one's life miserable for months, emailing, messaging, threatening. It's really quite horrid how she treats customers who have plunked down their money for her pdf's. I own about ten. I'm sure I'm not the only customer she's terrorizes. I've determined to report her to the Ravelry higher-up's next tinge she harasses me in the smallest way. Plus, I've actually since read that Ravelers can say whatever they want about a design they're knitting in their personal project notes. Don't know if that extends to the group forums. I left Madame Psycho's Fan Group a long time ago. She jumped down my throat for asking a question about a sweater I was knitting. I was stuck. (there actually turned out to be a small pattern error fire my size). She deleted my question, and messages a nasty note saying questions have to be submitted via her website Q&A. She also claimed that in describing my question, in detailing how and where I was stuck, I revealed too much pattern information. Really??? (btw, I did not reveal much!)

Eventually if she does enough of this, people will quit buying her stuff because it's just not worth it. I don't care HOW good it is, it's not THAT good. Besides, given a good enough photo of the thing, a lot of patterns can be reserves engineered anyway. :twisted: AND, they'll probably be just different enough to be "materially different". So take that Miss Poopie Head Psycho Nut Beast... from HELL. :p

I'm not on Ravelry... I tend to avoid "social media" in general. (This forum being a notable exception of course.) And this kind of thing is one of the major reasons why.

ArtLady1981
01-11-2013, 01:34 PM
Interestingly, the only dust-up I've experienced at Ravelry was at the hands of a designer, a business person. She shoots herself in the foot, and systematically tanks her own business and reputation by her aggressive, paranoid behavior. Instead of protecting her business interests, she shoots holes in them.

So you see why attention should be given to copyright issues, both from an ethical standpoint, but also as protection from psycho designers who would go to absurd lengths to getcha!....even if you're in the right and she has no case.

Jan in CA
01-11-2013, 02:54 PM
I know exactly who you're talking about Dollyce! She did the same thing to me I that group when I asked a question and at some point in the conversation (by pm of course) she asked me to be a mod in the group. Uh, no. She's completely paranoid. :zombie:

I should add that there are patterns people have kind of taken from questions, but they usually aren't identical and really, who's got time to hunt down that info?

mojo11
01-11-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't know about anybody else, but I knit a lot of Frankenpatterns -- patterns that take one element from this and one from that and mix in some of my own ideas to hold them together.

Gee... sounds just like what a pattern designer does.

suzeeq
01-11-2013, 04:49 PM
I do that a lot too - take the shaping from one, work the pattern stitches from one or more other patterns.

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 05:43 PM
OMG we'll all get arrested, fined, put on bread and water for mixing and matching. I did that for years with sewing patterns then someone at a fabric store said you can't mix brands when you do it so I said I guess I better not do that anymore. As for knitting garments for myself, anything that goes on the torso must be modified to fit. No off-the-shelf pattern is likely to work. :hair:

mojo11
01-11-2013, 05:51 PM
OMG we'll all get arrested, fined, put on bread and water for mixing and matching. I did that for years with sewing patterns then someone at a fabric store said you can't mix brands when you do it so I said I guess I better not do that anymore. As for knitting garments for myself, anything that goes on the torso must be modified to fit. No off-the-shelf pattern is likely to work. :hair:

When a designer can prove to me that s/he invented and own the rights to the 4-stitch cable, I'll gladly capitulate. Until then, I'll be guerrilla Frankenknitter. Viva la revolucion! (Maybe I'll even make myself a felted black beret with a little red star on it or sump'n. I still have some black and red Cascade 128...)

Jan in CA
01-11-2013, 06:23 PM
GG, I used to mix sewing patterns all the time. I made a prom dress and other formal that way. People and their ridiculous rules... Honestly. :doh:

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 06:27 PM
GG, I used to mix sewing patterns all the time. I made a prom dress and other formal that way. People and their ridiculous rules... Honestly. :doh:

My daughter was a very large girl before weight loss surgery. The only way she had dance dresses was for me to buy a pattern and alter, alter, alter it, then alter it some more. One must get inventive and creative when the need arises. I don't think she missed one dance, that was a lot of dresses to make. The last formal dress I made for her was her wedding dress. Now she's easy to sew for and if she feels like it, does it herself.

Jan in CA
01-11-2013, 06:34 PM
I'm small and just changed the skirt on them, but I'm no stranger to altering. It can be a bugger, but it's nice to have something custom fitted. That's awesome that you could do that for her. I'm sure she really loved those dresses!

The most fun sewing was for my DDs when they were little. I no longer sew now though. It's just too fiddly And too many steps now. I can pick up yarn and needles and go and I like that better.

ETA- I started sewing when I was 10 so I was we'll versed in it by HS.

IslandTime
01-11-2013, 08:58 PM
I think this begs the question - since you have the directions - just how much would you have to CHANGE the pattern, in order to call it your own? Or to at least be able to share it freely. That'd seem like the simplest way around it to me. Or could you make SOME changes, then give credit by acknowledgment that this pattern was inspired by a pattern originally published by so-and-so on such-and-such a date?

I'm pretty sure there's something specified in this way when it comes to cookbooks...?


Over at Ravelry, in the Pattern page for the Hooded Ribbed Jacket seen in that 1973 McCalls booklet, I posted my 2 cents in the comments section:

"It’s a crying shame that McCall’s has allowed this design to become lost, and unavailable to 21st Century knitters. With copyright laws that can lock up the design for 95 years from the publishing date, and maybe longer if McCall’s extends the copyright…it makes the design totally unavailable to 21st Century knitters. There are a few vintage copies of the Leaflet/booklet found on Ebay auction/bid basis only, but this hardly qualifies as a viable resource."

I may write to McCall's as well.

JudyD
01-11-2013, 09:13 PM
I think all this hullabaloo about copyrighted patterns and being unable to make copies is a result of the big worldwide web and trying to make money before someone else comes up with a similar idea. If you look at some of the older pattern books, booklets, leaflets, etc., there is no mention of even the designer's name, much less saying the pattern cannot be reproduced. I just checked one of my Leisure Arts books "Sweaters For All Seasons" in which there are 14 patterns and not one designer name in the book.

I worked for 12 years in a law office and know the drill for copyrighted/patented items. I dare say I'd be amazed if a designer actually went to the expense and time involved to register a copyright. They couldn't sell enough patterns to cover the cost. If you want to challenge any one of them ask for proof of copyright.

Years ago sellers of patterns knew the patterns would be hand copied and passed on to other women who couldn't afford to buy the patterns themselves. Back then it was unusual to find errors in the patterns, unlike today when errors abound, even in a so-called "test-knitted" item.

For what it's worth, that's my two cents!

Judy

Jan in CA
01-11-2013, 09:35 PM
Part of the problem here is that it's not a single designer and its a big company name. They may not go after anyone, but they do have the resources to do so if they want to. I've heard of big names going after someone for copyrighted images for instance.

As for changing a pattern that was discussed a few posts ago. No one really knows where that line is that one shouldn't cross.

ArtLady1981
01-12-2013, 04:35 AM
Well well...guess what!? Tonight I won the Ebay auction for the 1973 McCall's Booklet that contains the Ribbed Hooded Baby Jacket I'm interested in preserving. Yay. My (hidden) maximum bid wasn't driven higher than $17...so added to the $3.14 shipping...my booklet cost me $20.14! The booklet contains 65 patterns, a mix of knitting, crochet, quilting and sewing. For sure I know there are two baby cardigans I will knit.

I can hardly wait to get my hands on the booklet itself, to read the copyright language contains on the inside cover and/or back of book.

If I see any cracks, I will email McCall's Customer Service again and ask if I can make photo copies of the Hooded Ribbed Baby Jacket and share it with two Ravelers that seem to be in a lather about the pattern.

As I said before, I have some old tattered notes for the design, but I am going to love having the original pages with the pattern.

I started another Hooded Ribbed Baby Jacket last night, but I've modified the stitch counts tremendously, for two pressing reasons: 1) rather than worsted, my yarn is bulky weight, 2) I need a newborn 0-3 mo size and the pattern's smallest size is 6 mo.

The 6 mo size is a cast on of 102 with worsted. I cast on 78 with bulky weight...and it's working! I'm almost done with the body up to yoke...and then will knit the sleeves 2/3 of the way, then work the round yoke by joining the body stitches with the sleeve stitches. Some of you are probably very familiar with this style and construction. (http://images4.ravelrycache.com/uploads/luvs2ski/137620493/uploadedImage_medium2.png)

The hooded ribbed baby jacket is a fisherman rib, that is to say, the knits are knit in the stitch below...and it makes a very thick poofy pattern stitch. It's very warm because air is strapped in the poofiness. I love it. Very cushy!

Did I tell you...I knit this hooded baby jacket back in 1977 for my daughter, Lauralee. Hot icy pink and red red. My BFF had one in royal and one in emerald for her son, 4 months older than Lauralee. The jacket is sorta sentimental.

I will post a photo soon! :thumbsup:

salmonmac
01-12-2013, 06:28 AM
Congrats on getting the original pattern book. This is a fascinating discussion and it'll be interesting to rse McCall's copyright information.
Adoreable sweater, no wonder you wanted the original directions.

JudyD
01-12-2013, 07:23 AM
If the pattern was copyrighted in 1973 (under the 1909 copyright act) and not renewed the copyright expired in 2001 after 28 years. Wouldn't that save a lot of grief ?

Judy

GrumpyGramma
01-12-2013, 12:59 PM
:balloons: Congratulations, ArtLady! :balloons:

That's a very lovely sweater you linked to. I can hardly wait to see the one you're working on now. I understand that people want to be compensated for their work or use of their property but this has all gone into the realm of ridiculous IMHO. I'm so glad you won the auction.

mojo11
01-12-2013, 01:28 PM
I learned to cook by technique, not by recipe. I apply the same thing to knitting. Or programming. Or... well, anything. So if anybody gives you and grief over mix-and-match patterns, you can always tell them that you developed it based on commonly used techniques that are universally used by everyone who sews/knits/crochets/whathaveyous.

I'd challenge anyone to prove differently.

IslandTime
01-12-2013, 01:33 PM
SO glad you got it! You'll treasure it forever - and it won't be lost - have no doubt you'll see to that! Wtg, have a great time with it!

JudyD
01-14-2013, 12:15 PM
I just searched for a copyright on a pattern I just acquired. Copyright emblem is on the pattern along with "all rights reserved" by the designer. I searched pattern name and designer's name and found neither.

Judy

ArtLady1981
01-15-2013, 07:20 PM
The 64-pg booklet arrived today! Sixty-five baby things to knit, crochet, and sew. Bibs, toys, blankets, and clothing galore. It's amazing how relevant they are even for our 21st Century.

Anyway, my coveted baby hoodie is in there!

On the bottom of page 2, the Forward and Contents page, there are 4 lines of copyright language.

Copyright©1959, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973 by The McCall Pattern Company. All rights reserved. Printed and published in the U.S.A. by the McCall Pattern Company, 230 Park Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10017

So that's it.
I think perhaps this booklet began publication in 1959, or parts of it. This particular booklet was published in 1973, which renews all the designs copyright, I believe.

Not one single individual designer is named on any of the designs.

Therefore, whereas I would loan my booklet to my BFF who lives down the lane, I wouldn't make copies of a particular design/pattern for anyone else. If my BFF wanted to scan and print a copy of a design, and leave the booklet in my possession, I'd allow it.

And of course, I certainly wouldn't scan a pattern to a pdf doc and email it to anyone, not even my local friends. Too easy for pdf's to be widely distributed.

Anyone have anything to add?

Jan in CA
01-15-2013, 08:15 PM
Just to cover all bases thoroughly I'd email McCalls with the pertinent info and question just for your own peace of mind.

ArtLady1981
01-15-2013, 08:18 PM
:happydance: Just to cover all bases thoroughly I'd email McCalls with the pertinent info and question just for your own peace of mind.

Good idea.....if I ever want to share a copy with my BFF? or another person? An KH or Rav person you mean?

Jan in CA
01-15-2013, 08:27 PM
:happydance:

Good idea.....if I ever want to share a copy with my BFF? or another person? An KH or Rav person you mean?

Yeah. Plus they kind of left you hanging with no answer!

GrumpyGramma
01-15-2013, 09:40 PM
:balloons: Congratulations on your acquisition! :balloons:

That's worth celebrating!

I'm just glad that if your back were turned and someone copied something from it w/o your knowledge you wouldn't be held responsible. Good grief! It really is a shame to have such a cute baby sweater pattern fade off into oblivion. They should make such patterns available online, free or for a small fee.

ArtLady1981
01-16-2013, 04:09 AM
I totally agree!

And thanks for celebrating with me!

Jan in CA
01-16-2013, 12:42 PM
That's a great idea, GG! If they just charged $2 they'd make more than they are now! And think how good for McCalls it would be if they were known to put out of print patterns online for everyone to enjoy. :thumbsup:

DavidSydney63
01-22-2013, 05:01 PM
I love GrumpyGramma - she's very often the voice of reason in a very murky pond.

ArtLady1981
01-22-2013, 08:49 PM
Here's a copy/paste from an informative post in the "Copyright Matters" group over at Ravelry, in response to my post about the McCall's copyright issue:

"The McCalls of today is not the same company that published the knitting patterns of the 70’s. McCalls sewing sold their knitting magazine division to another company. I happen to know that company destroyed all the patterns they had in the archives and have no interest whatsoever in the copyrights to those patterns. So, no, McCalls isn’t going to come after anyone about that cuz they don’t own those copyrights any more. They are/were owned by a Japanese company. The same company that has given me permission to post pdf’s of those old patterns on the internet if I so desire.

So, No. McCalls isn’t coming after anyone for sharing a xeroxed copy of one of those old patterns."

dudeKnit
01-24-2013, 01:18 PM
The book may be copyrighted but the patterns may not be.

Dealing with copyright I wouldn't base anything off of hearsay, I'd want something from McCall's legal dept in writing, CYA.

Possibly they gave you permission as they see this a bigger hassle to actually enforce since the spread of digital information is impossible to stop, some mega-corps are too thick headed to figure this out and insist on DRM that gets broken within days of release. Think Bluray.

suzeeq
01-24-2013, 02:50 PM
If the book contains the pattern, they'd be copyrighted as being the book.

Stitch patterns are not copyrighted, but hthe manner in which they're presented can be.

ArtLady1981
01-24-2013, 04:22 PM
.....Dealing with copyright I wouldn't base anything off of hearsay, I'd want something from McCall's legal dept in writing, CYA.

Exactly what I'm thinking.

But the post was very interesting. Had to share.

You know the old saying? "Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear."

That about covers hearsay...:wink:

dudeKnit
01-24-2013, 04:39 PM
Very true.

I don't really understand why a company would try to copyright a pattern. I understand that they do so to protect them as was stated that they owned it at the time of printing, in that case I could see them wanting some type of protection from say someone copyrighting a work that they printed then trying to sue them or extort money due to them owning a copyright on them and not getting remuneration for it at time of printing.

Seems sad when talking about something that someone with skill could look at a garment and go home and almost exactly reproduce it without a pattern. I'm assuming the gurus here with the mystical stitch wizardry are capable of this, call it zen-knitting if you will.