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MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 03:54 PM
First of all, I'm new to this site, and to be honest relatively new to knitting, so hello!

I was gifted a lovely knit the nativity book for christmas by my mother-in-law, so I thought I'd make an early start for next year (there's a lot of parts to it, so it may take me some time!) but I've already encountered a problem..

here goes..

if I have 29 stitches and then work the following row, how many stitches should this leave me with?

(yrn, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3, y.fwd, k1) twice, then y.fwd, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3 ?

the next row is yrn then purl to end, resulting in 29 stitches total, which suggests the row before gives 28 stitches, but I'm not sure how?? I must be going wrong somewhere as I seem to be gaining stitches:?? Should y.fwd give me a stitch? I thought it just meant bring yarn to front of work?

Thanks in advance for any help!

mojo11
01-11-2013, 04:24 PM
First of all, I'm new to this site, and to be honest relatively new to knitting, so hello!

I was gifted a lovely knit the nativity book for christmas by my mother-in-law, so I thought I'd make an early start for next year (there's a lot of parts to it, so it may take me some time!) but I've already encountered a problem..

here goes..

if I have 29 stitches and then work the following row, how many stitches should this leave me with?

(yrn, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3, y.fwd, k1) twice, then y.fwd, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3 ?

the next row is yrn then purl to end, resulting in 29 stitches total, which suggests the row before gives 28 stitches, but I'm not sure how?? I must be going wrong somewhere as I seem to be gaining stitches:?? Should y.fwd give me a stitch? I thought it just meant bring yarn to front of work?

Thanks in advance for any help!

I must be counting it wrong 'cause I can only make 20 stitches out of the row you listed. the y.fwd shouldn't give you another stitch (not on purpose anyway :mrgreen:) but I think the yrn will... like a YO would. But you also have a double decrease (sl1, k2tog, psso) in the same repeat and another one at the end of the line. So...

I'll be interested in seeing the answer to this one too.

MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 04:31 PM
I must be counting it wrong 'cause I can only make 20 stitches out of the row you listed. the y.fwd shouldn't give you another stitch (not on purpose anyway :mrgreen:) but I think the yrn will... like a YO would. But you also have a double decrease (sl1, k2tog, psso) in the same repeat and another one at the end of the line. So...

I'll be interested in seeing the answer to this one too.

Glad I'm not the only one confused by this!

suzeeq
01-11-2013, 04:52 PM
Yep, I end up with 28 too. Is there a k1 before the first repeat? Or there should be another yo at the end of the row.

mojo11
01-11-2013, 05:09 PM
Yep, I end up with 28 too. Is there a k1 before the first repeat? Or there should be another yo at the end of the row.

So I AM counting it (WAY) wrong... but I'm still not seeing where.

yrn +1 (1)
k3 +3 (4)
sl1, k2tog, psso -2 (2)
k3 +3 (5)
y.fwd +0 (5)
k1 +1 (6)

doing all that twice yields (12)

then
y.fwd +0 (12)
k3 +3 (15)
sl1, k2tog, psso -2 (13)
k3 (16)

Even if you added one for the y.fwd's that still only comes out to 19. So what am I missing? :wall:

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 05:13 PM
I also counted 28.

" the y.fwd shouldn't give you another stitch (not on purpose anyway )" I believe the yfwd is an inc (more or less a yo), and wyif just means bring it to the front w/o an inc.

"the next row is yrn then purl to end, resulting in 29 stitches total"
With 28 sts from the previous row the yrn before purling the rest of the sts will bring the count 29.

That's how I figure it works.

mojo11
01-11-2013, 05:22 PM
I also counted 28.

" the y.fwd shouldn't give you another stitch (not on purpose anyway )" I believe the yfwd is an inc (more or less a yo), and wyif just means bring it to the front w/o an inc.

"the next row is yrn then purl to end, resulting in 29 stitches total"
With 28 sts from the previous row the yrn before purling the rest of the sts will bring the count 29.

That's how I figure it works.

I figured the yrn on the next row would add one to whatever the listed row was too, but then I started adding up THAT and I can't make it be 28. Then again, I figured yfwd was just bringing the yarn forward between the needles, so what do I know? :??

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 05:32 PM
I counted it to 28 but getting it down in writing is proving very difficult. I'll try again.

(yrn, <1> k3,<3> sl1, k2tog, psso,<1> k3,<3> y.fwd<1>, k1<1>) twice, then y.fwd, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3

The bolded numbers come to 10, do it twice for 20

y.fwd, <1> k3,<3> sl1, k2tog, psso,<1> k3<3>
This gives you 8 more,
20 + 8 = 28

Math and I do not get along very well. :gah:

suzeeq
01-11-2013, 05:32 PM
A yo or yrn or yf doesn't use a stitch, it's just a wrap around the needle, then you go on to the k3 or single k1. So your stitches would be -

"yo, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3, yo, k1, yo, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3, yo, k1, yo k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3"

The yo isn't counted as a stitch, but adds one which is offset by the decs. There's the problem - there's 3 double decs (-6 sts) and 5 YOs. So either there should be another yo, or the very last dec is either a sl1, k1, psso or k2tog, but not a double dec.

mojo11
01-11-2013, 05:41 PM
I counted it to 28 but getting it down in writing is proving very difficult. I'll try again.

(yrn, <1> k3,<3> sl1, k2tog, psso,<1> k3,<3> y.fwd<1>, k1<1>) twice, then y.fwd, k3, sl1, k2tog, psso, k3

The bolded numbers come to 10, do it twice for 20

y.fwd, <1> k3,<3> sl1, k2tog, psso,<1> k3<3>
This gives you 8 more,
20 + 8 = 28

Math and I do not get along very well. :gah:

Well you're doing better than I am. I was getting derailed by the double decrease and counting it as -2 not +1. Which... is SORTA right, but sends the stitch that IS still left on the needle into an alternate dimension. :hair:

All of this begs the requisition if yrn=YO and yfwd=yo then why use 2 different <expletive> instructions to say the same thing?? :grrr:

MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 05:43 PM
Hmmm...so just thought I would have another practice....

It seems that when I'm yarning fwd I'm increasing by 1, because if I knit (yarn is to back) bring the yarn to the front (yarn forward) then knit again it is having the same effect as yarning over, ie adding a stitch. When I do this now I am only left with 1 stitch to knit at the end of the row, instead of 3! Yet, when I count the stitches it adds up to 28.
Then on the next row when I yrn then purl to end that makes 29, which is correct.
The next row asks me to repeat the first row.Again I had 1 stitch to knit at the end, instead of 3, again giving 28.
The I must yrn and knit to end (29) and repeat theses 4 rows until it reaches a certain length.
The knitting is starting to take on the correct shape according to the picture, so maybe the pattern is wrong, not me?? Maybe it should read k1 instead of k3 at the end of the first row?
:wall:

mojo11
01-11-2013, 05:43 PM
There's the problem - there's 3 double decs (-6 sts) and 5 YOs.

Glad to know I haven't completely lost the ability to add short columns of small numbers...

I think GG's got the 29th one sorted. It happens with the YO at the beginning of the next row.

MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 05:49 PM
That makes sense, but then why the hell do I only seem to have 1 stitch left to knit at the end of the complicated row instead of 3??? Arrghhh! I'm still going wrong!!

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 05:50 PM
"All of this begs the requisition if yrn=YO and yfwd=yo then why use 2 different <expletive> instructions to say the same thing?"

My best guesses:

Patterns are written according the custom of the country they are written in

Patterns are written by people from different generations and terminology changes

Old patterns get updated and terminology from yesteryear gets mixed with terminology for the time the pattern was updated, which may or may not have happened this decade or this century

Patterns are written by people and people do things their own way

In addition to differences by country and maybe continent, there are probably regional differences as well....much as in Stephen King books he talks about a breakdown lane which I think is called a shoulder here.

Go figure. Patterns written by real people in a real world are imperfect and sometimes rather unclear.

Yes, it makes me grumpy!

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 05:55 PM
Well you're doing better than I am. I was getting derailed by the double decrease and counting it as -2 not +1. Which... is SORTA right, but sends the stitch that IS still left on the needle into an alternate dimension. :hair:

All of this begs the requisition if yrn=YO and yfwd=yo then why use 2 different <expletive> instructions to say the same thing?? :grrr:

See, I never even thought about a double decrease and had to go find it. I just about gave up. I counted how many stitches each part of the instructions accounted for on the right needle. My mind works differently, obviously, and sometimes explanations go right over the top of my head. For me to explain things so someone else understands can be nigh impossible. It is so frustrating!

mojo11
01-11-2013, 05:57 PM
"All of this begs the requisition if yrn=YO and yfwd=yo then why use 2 different <expletive> instructions to say the same thing?"

My best guesses:

Patterns are written according the custom of the country they are written in

Patterns are written by people from different generations and terminology changes

Old patterns get updated and terminology from yesteryear gets mixed with terminology for the time the pattern was updated, which may or may not have happened this decade or this century

Patterns are written by people and people do things their own way

In addition to differences by country and maybe continent, there are probably regional differences as well....much as in Stephen King books he talks about a breakdown lane which I think is called a shoulder here.

Go figure. Patterns written by real people in a real world are imperfect and sometimes rather unclear.

Yes, it makes me grumpy!

I get all of the above. People say things differently in different places/times. And yeah, considering it's a nativity, the pattern could be as much as 2000 years old.

But isn't that what EDITORS ARE FOR??? You'd think that in the process of getting this to publication SOMEBODY would have asked this question. I know if I submitted documentation with something similar in it, I'd have gotten it back with a sternly worded WTF on it.

Makes me grumpy too ;)

suzeeq
01-11-2013, 06:00 PM
All of this begs the requisition if yrn=YO and yfwd=yo then why use 2 different <expletive> instructions to say the same thing?? :grrr:

They're usually used between different kinds of sts... a yfwd between 2 knits and a yrn between 2 purls or from a knit to a purl. Which isn't here, they're all knit sts so someone doesn't know how to write a pattern.

Wait till you see 'k3, yfwd, yrn, p2'. That's just 1 yo and is between a knit a purl.

mojo11
01-11-2013, 06:01 PM
See, I never even thought about a double decrease and had to go find it. I just about gave up. I counted how many stitches each part of the instructions accounted for on the right needle. My mind works differently, obviously, and sometimes explanations go right over the top of my head. For me to explain things so someone else understands can be nigh impossible. It is so frustrating!

The major difference being that your way WORKS!

Honestly, I might have missed the double decrease too if I weren't currently working on a pattern that looks eerily similar to this one. But since that one is stored in fast-access RAM at present, that subset of instructions sorta jumped out at me.

MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 06:04 PM
With a little help, I think I've cracked it! Just managed to knit the row, having 3 knit stitches at the end as per the pattern and yet it still added up to 28!! Think I was yarning over incorrectly at the beginning of the first bit of the repeat:woohoo:

suzeeq
01-11-2013, 06:06 PM
It seems that when I'm yarning fwd I'm increasing by 1, because if I knit (yarn is to back) bring the yarn to the front (yarn forward) then knit again it is having the same effect as yarning over, ie adding a stitch. When I do this now I am only left with 1 stitch to knit at the end of the row, instead of 3! Yet, when I count the stitches it adds up to 28.
Then on the next row when I yrn then purl to end that makes 29, which is correct.
The next row asks me to repeat the first row.Again I had 1 stitch to knit at the end, instead of 3, again giving 28.
The I must yrn and knit to end (29) and repeat theses 4 rows until it reaches a certain length.
The knitting is starting to take on the correct shape according to the picture, so maybe the pattern is wrong, not me?? Maybe it should read k1 instead of k3 at the end of the first row?
:wall:

No the reason you only have 1 left at the end of the row instead of 3 is because you ate up the other 2 sts with what I put in bold above. You're knitting a stitch that isn't there when you do the YOs, so you have too many sts between them on the repeat twice. A yo is only wrapping the yarn around the needle and does not include a k1. So you wrap the yarn, k3, dec, k3, wrap the yarn k1 only, then repeat. Don't be knitting any stitches that aren't mentioned in the pattern - it says k3, not k1, k3.

MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 06:14 PM
Seems that in the end it was a combo fo my inexperience and error along with a BADLY written pattern! This does not bode well as this was my first piece of the nativity...I'm suddenly filled with dread at the prospect of knitting 3 kings, 3 shepherds, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, a manger, an angel, 2 sheep, one ox and one *** :passedout:

MrsBknits
01-11-2013, 06:16 PM
Seems that in the end it was a combo fo my inexperience and error along with a BADLY written pattern! This does not bode well as this was my first piece of the nativity...I'm suddenly filled with dread at the prospect of knitting 3 kings, 3 shepherds, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, a manger, an angel, 2 sheep, one ox and one donkey :passedout:

GrumpyGramma
01-11-2013, 06:17 PM
Congratulations, MrsBknits :balloons:

I too got it to work IRL. Can anyone recommend a good brand of wigs? :hair:

suzeeq
01-11-2013, 07:13 PM
I'm suddenly filled with dread at the prospect of knitting 3 kings, 3 shepherds, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, a manger, an angel, 2 sheep, one ox and one *** :passedout:Sounds like a plan for next Christmas!!!
:lol:

mojo11
01-12-2013, 01:09 PM
Congratulations!:cheering:

On the yrn/yfwd question, I consulted with my Yarn Jedi Kninja Master girlfriend last night and showed her the line in question and she offered this explanation for the use of two different instructions that mean essentially the same thing. The yrn would be a YO in the usual sense, but the yfwd would wrap in a counterclockwise direction rather than clockwise. Which... when I pictured how that would have to work, made some sense. Bringing the yarn forward between the needles would put it on the wrong side to do a knit, so you'd have to move it behind the needle again before knitting the next stitch. Presto, you have a counterclockwise turn. Now WHY you'd want to do this is anybody's guess, but this explains why there's two different instructions.

The lesson here I suppose (for me anyway) is that pattern instructions have to be considered in the larger context of what ELSE you're doing... because sometimes the same term means two different things depending on context. In a "normal" (whatever that is) context, I'd read yfwd as the transition to the front side and if your next stitch was a purl, that would make sense (though the instruction would be pretty extraneous unless this was a My First Rib pattern). In a perfect world (whatever THAT is) there's a section in the pattern that EXPLAINS what the yfwd means in the context of this pattern. But they may have assumed it wasn't necessary. (With me, this is NEVER a safe assumption... YMMV.)

But at the end of the day, you got it working and THAT is the only thing that really matters.:woohoo:

GrumpyGramma
01-12-2013, 01:22 PM
I'm really curious. What's the title of your book and when and where it was published? You will share a picture of the FO I hope.

suzeeq
01-12-2013, 02:05 PM
Bringing the yarn forward between the needles would put it on the wrong side to do a knit, so you'd have to move it behind the needle again before knitting the next stitch.

No, that's really not quite right. Bringing the yf does put it in front, because you bring it between the needles, but when you work the next stitch the yarn gets moved over the needle to the back, making the yarnover. The british terms tell you how to move the yarn, while US terms tell you what result you should have. The yarn would always be going in a counter clockwise direction around the needle, just the same as for a knit or purl stitch. A backwards/clockwise yo would be bringing the yarn up and over the top, not between and maybe that's what she was thinking of.

mojo11
01-15-2013, 10:23 AM
No, that's really not quite right. Bringing the yf does put it in front, because you bring it between the needles, but when you work the next stitch the yarn gets moved over the needle to the back, making the yarnover. The british terms tell you how to move the yarn, while US terms tell you what result you should have. The yarn would always be going in a counter clockwise direction around the needle, just the same as for a knit or purl stitch. A backwards/clockwise yo would be bringing the yarn up and over the top, not between and maybe that's what she was thinking of.

Actually we're saying the same thing, I just used the word "behind" in an ambiguous fashion. What I meant was the yarn would have to be on the back side of the work before you could do the next stitch. But in order for the operation to have any effect, you would have to go over the needle from the front -- counterclockwise (or anti clockwise if you wanna be British about it).

Which I suppose means that the "yrn" in these instructions means to go backward (clockwise) around the needle... otherwise, I can't see any point to using two different instructions. Normally the pattern would tell you what they meant somewhere, right? But maybe it's somewhere else in the book rather than in the pattern itself... anyway, sounds like it's sorted.

mojo11
01-15-2013, 10:24 AM
Seems that in the end it was a combo fo my inexperience and error along with a BADLY written pattern! This does not bode well as this was my first piece of the nativity...I'm suddenly filled with dread at the prospect of knitting 3 kings, 3 shepherds, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, a manger, an angel, 2 sheep, one ox and one donkey :passedout:

Don't forget the Talking Walnut. :)

suzeeq
01-15-2013, 11:07 AM
No, yrn means 'yarn round needle' which indicates that you wrap it all the way around so you end up in front. None of the terms mean to wrap the yarn backwards, if a pattern has you do that they do call it 'yo backwards' or describe it as such.

As said before, British terms describe how you wrap the yarn between different stitches. The other one is yon - yarn over needle - and is when you go from a purl to a knit - you just loosely lay the yarn over the top of the needle to the back.

mojo11
01-15-2013, 12:07 PM
It seems to all be context driven. I found this article (http://www.creativeknittingmagazine.com/printer.php?mode=article&article_id=2650), which helps ('cos it has pictures) but the whole thing makes my head all hurty. :zombie:

suzeeq
01-15-2013, 12:15 PM
Just do a yo whenever you see those terms and don't try to think about it...

mojo11
01-15-2013, 12:20 PM
Just do a yo whenever you see those terms and don't try to think about it...

That's the same advice I got from Wendy... but my programmer brain just has to know why things do what they do. It's a curse.