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suziehomemaker
05-23-2005, 03:42 PM
I just got an email about PETA's website: www.savethesheep.com

I thought it was a joke at first. Is this stuff really true or is it glamorized? I'm currently knitting with Merino Wool, not sure from where but I definitely feel guilty now.

I do understand that some people go overboard with these issues so I'm wondering if anyone has any first hand knowledge on these practices. I have a friend who's dad owns a dairy farm and those cows are treated extremely well - never like some of the articles that claim horrible abuses.

KellyK
05-23-2005, 03:52 PM
Mulesing as a practice does exist, so I choose not to buy australian-made wool. I always feel torn about PETA. I dont think its quite realistic to expect the world to stop using ALL animal products, PERIOD. Although I personally dont use products that have been tested on animals or that were obtained through excessive cruelty, I wish PETA would offer some alternative resources, other than "just dont use any animal products". I think it would lend some validity to their cause.

suziehomemaker
05-23-2005, 03:58 PM
I just checked and my yarn label has "Made in Peru". That makes me feel better but I guess I'll have to pay more attention when in the stores and ordering online. I absolutely love working with wool, I don't think I could go cold turkey!

Silver
05-23-2005, 04:03 PM
It's from PETA.
Need I say more? :doh:

feministmama
05-23-2005, 11:46 PM
Mulesing as a practice does exist, so I choose not to buy australian-made wool. I always feel torn about PETA. I dont think its quite realistic to expect the world to stop using ALL animal products, PERIOD. Although I personally dont use products that have been tested on animals or that were obtained through excessive cruelty, I wish PETA would offer some alternative resources, other than "just dont use any animal products". I think it would lend some validity to their cause.

What she said

feministmama
05-23-2005, 11:46 PM
It's from PETA.
Need I say more? :doh:

Ya know, PETA really underminds thier work by using degrading ads of women to get thier message across. I'm weary of anything they say.

KellyK
05-23-2005, 11:54 PM
I can appreciate their intention, I mean alot of the issues (like this one with the sheep) should be brought to light.....I just think they go a bit overboard in the means they use to get their message out. Makes alot of people feel like you two do...

ekgheiy
05-24-2005, 02:08 PM
There have got to be better ways of raising awareness WITHOUT force-feeding the facts (or opinions, for that matter) down people's throats.

Does PETA even consider that some people JUST DON'T CARE? I don't think that you can MAKE people care; I think people have to arrive at that state of mind on their own. :thinking:

Gatomoso
05-24-2005, 02:51 PM
I agree Peta can really go overboard. I never read their articles because I have nightmares about them. I, however, use Peta's Caring Consumer all the time to determine what detergent, baby product, mascara, etc. to buy. They should do a wool one! I will e-mail them. Maybe others can do the same?

hedgehog
05-24-2005, 02:54 PM
Ya know, PETA really underminds thier work by using degrading ads of women to get thier message across. I'm weary of anything they say.

I completely agree!!

I can appreciate their intention, I mean alot of the issues (like this one with the sheep) should be brought to light.....I just think they go a bit overboard in the means they use to get their message out. Makes alot of people feel like you two do...

Again, i agree...

I have a big problem with people who are EXTREME animal activists. I find you can shut them down pretty quickly by asking if they would refuse to immunize their children, refuse surgery or a transplant, or refuse life-saving drugs since ALL of these came about through unfortunate but NECESSARY animal trials. I'm sure even Pamela Anderson (ick!! :help: ) is being treated for her Hepatitis C through drug therapy!

That usually backs them into a corner they don't want to be in.

I really hate animal cruelty but extremism doesn't help curb it productively.

My $0.02.

-hh

brendajos
05-24-2005, 03:02 PM
well i must say that i don't think that PETA is WRONG in their efforts but their methods tend to be the problem. However, it is through their efforts and the efforts of those who are quieter in their cause that we know about the abuses so many animals have gone through. much of it is just appalling to me.

however, that being said, i have a real hard time getting behind PETA because their efforts have turned to human abuse and you certainly can't trade one for another.

KellyK
05-24-2005, 04:49 PM
I've said it before...

:heart: I LOVE THIS PLACE! :heart:

Im just always impressed at how we can all come here and express some pretty STRONG views on topics and still remain mature, respectful and even friendly about it!

Is is just that KNITTERS are NICE people??? :inlove:

That said...

It makes me sad that there are lots of folks who dont care about issues of animal cruelty, and I dont feel the issues about animal testing apply here....animals do not have the same anatomy & physiology as humans...especailly when it comes to transplants, as their immune systems absolutely do not operate the same way, and rejection of implants is where most problems occur. At the very least, there is no reason for the animal testing that still goes on today. Plus, there is a whole MOVEMENT of people who do not immunize their children. They go so far as to homeschool to avoid that law.

brendajos
05-24-2005, 05:03 PM
my cousin wouldn't give her kids any more immunizations after she lost her baby to SIDS. There is obviously no proof that the immunizations he got that day caused it but it certainly was enough for her to make sure it didn't happen to her kids again. Of course once they got old enough for their bodies to really be able to protect themselves they got some of their shots but not until then...

i think a lot of people forget that we were put here to protect the earth and pass it down...not pillage it... :(

Nuno930
05-24-2005, 05:12 PM
Plus, there is a whole MOVEMENT of people who do not immunize their children.

Yes, yes there is

KellyK
05-24-2005, 05:32 PM
:roflhard:

Let's change the name of this thread to:

Discussion of every single hot-button topic there is or ever HAS been!

Here....Ill start:
I cannot STAND this President.
I am against violence of ANY kind, including this war.
I am pro-choice, not necessarily pro-abortion.
I do not agree with all of the dogma imposed by the catholic church.
I am FOR the legal and societal recognition of same-sex marriage.
After all I said about animal cruely issues above, I still eat meat, but not veal.
I am for the death penalty, but also feel that this judicial system needs some reform before we can REALLY be sure that those who have been "proven guilty" are truly guilty.
I am no longer a pot smoker, but think marajuana should be de-criminalized.
Two things really make me angry...child neglect and fur coats.
I dont think all homeless people are "just lazy"
Well, okay...three things....SUVs in the city. They guzzle natural resources and I cant see from my normal-sized car when Im turning a corner or pulling out of a parking spot.

That's all I can think of for now....
:roflhard:

Nuno930
05-24-2005, 05:45 PM
:roflhard:

Let's change the name of this thread to:

Discussion of every single hot-button topic there is or ever HAS been!

Here....Ill start:
I cannot STAND this President.
I am against violence of ANY kind, including this war.
I am pro-choice, not necessarily pro-abortion.
I do not agree with all of the dogma imposed by the catholic church.
I am FOR the legal and societal recognition of same-sex marriage.
After all I said about animal cruely issues above, I still eat meat, but not veal.
I am for the death penalty, but also feel that this judicial system needs some reform before we can REALLY be sure that those who have been "proven guilty" are truly guilty.
I am no longer a pot smoker, but think marajuana should be de-criminalized.
Two things really make me angry...child neglect and fur coats.
I dont think all homeless people are "just lazy"
Well, okay...three things....SUVs in the city. They guzzle natural resources and I cant see from my normal-sized car when Im turning a corner or pulling out of a parking spot.

That's all I can think of for now....
:roflhard:

:roflhard:

Ummm, I think ditto there. Minus the meat part, I am a vegetarian (but not vegan)

brendajos
05-24-2005, 05:51 PM
:roflhard:

Let's change the name of this thread to:

Discussion of every single hot-button topic there is or ever HAS been!

Here....Ill start:
I cannot STAND this President.
I am against violence of ANY kind, including this war.
I am pro-choice, not necessarily pro-abortion.
I do not agree with all of the dogma imposed by the catholic church.
I am FOR the legal and societal recognition of same-sex marriage.
After all I said about animal cruely issues above, I still eat meat, but not veal.
I am for the death penalty, but also feel that this judicial system needs some reform before we can REALLY be sure that those who have been "proven guilty" are truly guilty.
I am no longer a pot smoker, but think marajuana should be de-criminalized.
Two things really make me angry...child neglect and fur coats.
I dont think all homeless people are "just lazy"
Well, okay...three things....SUVs in the city. They guzzle natural resources and I cant see from my normal-sized car when Im turning a corner or pulling out of a parking spot.

That's all I can think of for now....
:roflhard:


lmao! Kelly i think i may be outrageously attracted to you right now...too bad about that thing of you bein' a girl

:rofling:

hedgehog
05-24-2005, 06:08 PM
At the very least, there is no reason for the animal testing that still goes on today.

I'm confused. When you say "animal testing" do you mean something like spraying hairspray into the eyes of bunny rabbits? Or are you talking about animal trials (ie: testing out drugs and surgical procedures on animals)? Because one is absolutely unnecessary and irresponsible and the latter is an absolute necessity. Most, if not all, surgical procedures are perfected through animal trials before they're ever allowed to be conducted on humans (ie: organ transplanting, re-attachment of limbs, by-pass surgery, skin grafting for burn victims, fertility treatments, etc). It's ethically immoral to attempt novel procedures on humans without sound evidence that it most likely will work.

The same is true for drug trials. Mammalian (warm-blooded, fuzzy animals including human) physiology and immune responses are remarkably very similar. In fact, humans and pigs are incredibly similar in these respects (perhaps not expected but true). And there are MANY rat/mouse models for human diseases and conditions that mirror humans - some identically (ie: diabetic mice, mice prone to obesity, rats prone to heart diseases, etc.). All the drugs that you hear about on the (more than abundant!) commercials on tv are all run through animal trials first - including birth control!! Sometimes the results are good, sometimes bad. But it's simply not possible to create these drugs without these animal trials.

My original post was, i guess, a more generalized statement that these extremists (including PETA) who threaten to blow up laboratories and harass research scientists usually neglect to take these ideas in hand first. I wonder how many of them get their birth control in some other form than condoms or counting days, or would refuse a skin grafting technique if horrifically burned.

Plus, there is a whole MOVEMENT of people who do not immunize their children. They go so far as to homeschool to avoid that law.

True. But they can't avoid immunizations if they go to state-funded colleges and univesities. Those are the ones i feel the most sorry for because your immune system is LESS able to create a life-long immunity if you're older and the response to the injections are MUCH worse in older children and adults. I know becasue i had to have a second MMRI when i was 22 and it was bloody AWFUL! :(

In Britain they're requiring students to get a meningitis vaccine before entering school because they've had numerous epidemics in schools and universities. In fact, one of my friends went out with her friend (17 yrs old) on friday and she was dead from meningitis by sunday. Game over. It was quick and it was horrible and not contracted from school.

Dunno... i'd be too scared to risk NOT immunizing.

I guess i don't see things in black and white, which is why the extremists bother me. But i do try my best to avoid all types of animal cruelty, and activists are great for raising consciousness. However, to me, their tactics are akin to raising your voice to shouting level in order to be heard by the person in front of you. Not only can they hear you, but now you've pissed them off. ;)

I'll stop now before i become even more unpopular... :|

-hh

hedgehog
05-24-2005, 06:11 PM
I cannot STAND this President.
I am against violence of ANY kind, including this war.
I am pro-choice, not necessarily pro-abortion.
I do not agree with all of the dogma imposed by the catholic church.
I am FOR the legal and societal recognition of same-sex marriage.
After all I said about animal cruely issues above, I still eat meat, but not veal.
I am for the death penalty, but also feel that this judicial system needs some reform before we can REALLY be sure that those who have been "proven guilty" are truly guilty.
I am no longer a pot smoker, but think marajuana should be de-criminalized.
Two things really make me angry...child neglect and fur coats.
I dont think all homeless people are "just lazy"
Well, okay...three things....SUVs in the city. They guzzle natural resources and I cant see from my normal-sized car when Im turning a corner or pulling out of a parking spot.


I emphatically agree on EVERY point - c'ept half of one! ;)

Great list, KellyK!

-hh

KellyK
05-24-2005, 06:51 PM
Because one is absolutely unnecessary and irresponsible and the latter is an absolute necessity.
The same is true for drug trials.
I'll stop now before i become even more unpopular... :|
I just happen to disagree....

BUT...you aren't becoming unpopular! I LOVE a forum where people can disagree and still knit together! :mrgreen:


lmao! Kelly i think i may be outrageously attracted to you right now...too bad about that thing of you bein' a girl :rofling:
*KellyK bats her eyelashes at Bren* :eyebrow:

suziehomemaker
05-24-2005, 08:01 PM
Whoa . . . what did I start here? I have to admit I'm plain ignorant on this topic. Growing up in a small town meant we hunted every year. Deer, pheasant, turkey, even rabbits sometimes but I wasn't crazy about them. I am now understanding all of the animal rights stuff but I have a hard time knowing what's real and what's just PR.

I agree that I can't stand the current administration. It's "believe in me and don't ask questions or your not a good Christian".

I also agree that homeless people aren't just lazy but I see the same people everyday asking for money. I know that there's shelters and programs for help out there and it's frustrating but I can't give money when I know they'll just be there again tomorrow asking for more. I'd rather give clothes or food but you'd be surprised at the people who don't want that type of help.

Anyway, enough controversy - I'm going to go back to knitting and get fired up over finishing my second sock with Merino wool! (from Peru of course)
:XX:

Gatomoso
05-24-2005, 08:04 PM
I could never have guessed where this thread has gone! But, I *LOVE* it! KellyK, you are gorgeous! And, Hedgehog, I think you're mighty cute too!

I just want to add one more thing I feel strongly about -- my own, currently applicable hot-button topic: Nursing in public!

Gosh darn it! I will NOT feed my kid in the bathroom! I will be discreet and wear nursing tops and you won't see my nipple (gasp :shock: ) or my back fat! But I WILL feed my kid when she's hungry! So there! I'm sick of the people (almost always men who were previously checking me and my 34F's out) who say, "That's disgusting!" Bite me! Actually, don't, my kid does that. Ouch.

:D

KellyK
05-24-2005, 08:13 PM
Suz....looks to me like everyone LOVES what you"started", and I dont think you started anything....you just never know, but sometimes it turns into a HEALTHY discussion! I wish ALL of society could be this pleasant!

Gato...GOOD FOR YOU!!! :cheering: I TOTALLY agree! I am eating dinner in public...why shouldn't your baby?? Let's advertise THAT instead of HOOTERS Buffalo wings! (Femmy? Comments?) If someone from "across the pond" could tell me that Im right or wrong, I am pretty sure that America is the only culture that gets all tied up in knots about this issue.

Nuno930
05-24-2005, 08:33 PM
Right on Gato! One of the most blood boiling, yet funny situations I encountered EVER was at the pool last summer. Some guy I noticed was oggling me and my breasts for quite sometime and only when it came time to breastfeed my daughter did he become highly offended by my low cut top... and tried to get the lifeguard to have me moved to the bathroom.

suziehomemaker
05-24-2005, 08:45 PM
That's definitely a big hesitation for me (besides that whole birthing thing). Do you or don't you breast feed? It's good for the baby, hard on the mom (emotionally I've heard) and uncomfortable in public situations.

Don't mind me, I've got tons of reasons why I haven't had kids yet. Keeps the parents and in-laws at bay.

While we're talking about public things . . . I hate the looks I get from business people when I knit on the train. They look at me like I've got two heads. Dude - they're knitting needles and yes I'm making something that you might think looks silly but whoever gets it will love it! Or at least pretend! Go back to typing on your laptop as loudly as possible, go back to reading your paper and just try to keep it out of my way because I have needles and they will poke a hole through your sports section mister!

Hildegard_von_Knittin
05-24-2005, 08:47 PM
WOW. I totally skipped this post after I read the PETA site in the original post (sorry Suzie). My feelings were "you've got to be kidding me." I think that some people have a serious issue with finding "something" to feel strongly about, and the trend in society today is to be very vocal, tenacious, extremist and shocking to get your point across. I don't understand why some people think that their cause is more important than others, and why they feel that they must push their beliefs on others and subject those who choose to eat meat/wear wool/marry a person of the same sex/have an abortion/etc to such continual badgering. It's not the beliefs that I have a problem with: it's the vitriolic criticism that extremists project onto others that ticks me off. If a person doesn't like how chickens have their heads cut off that is okay with me, and I applaud them for sticking to their guns and boycotting KFC. I do not want to be handed bloody-looking buckets of chicken-ish parts by some zealot when I go to get my lunch... isn't there something more productive they could be doing??????? If Alicia Silverstone doesn't like have sheep are castrated, then she should not buy wool... but she'd better not judge me for doing so. I really do make an effort NOT to push my beliefs on other people (about catholicism, walmart, birth control, chee-wa-wa people, or food)... in a perfect world everyone would posess this discretion. Don't get me wrong, I am very opinionated, but i don't judge or try to "convert" people to my way of thinking. (uhm, if i ticked you off in this or any other post, it wasn't my intention :slinky:)
If I wanted to be told what to do, I would go live in China or Cuba. Those who feel it's their duty to force their cause on others can go develop their own totalitarian regime and butt out of my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
So, now, I will pursue happiness by eating a steak and drinking wine while wearing my leather birkenstocks. Then I might knit some on my next felting project while talking to my married gay friend Kenny on the phone. After that, I will cheerfully murder any spiders or june bugs that are in my bathroom before washing with neutrogena, shampooing with Pantene, brushing my teeth with aim, and moisturizing with oil of olay. Then I will join my kitties in bed. The only controversial thing I'm not going to do tonight is have illicit relations with my husband (because he's at work). America rules. :-D

Jivewhistle
05-24-2005, 08:51 PM
Ah. What a great thread. I agree on all your points KK :thumbsup:

Gatomoso, you go girrrrlll!!! *snaps fingers*

This thread is making me really really hungry for a steak...mmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't see a drooling emoticon. Eww, that might look kinda sick though. :roflhard:

Hildegard_von_Knittin
05-24-2005, 08:58 PM
since this came up while i was composing my ridiculously long post, my personal opinion on breast feeding is two-fold:
To oglers: If it bothers you, look at one of the other ba-jillion things going on right now.
To moms: If the kid can articulate a complete sentence to ask for it, it's time to wean; otherwise relish in this relationship that not all women get to experience.

gimmesanity
05-24-2005, 09:58 PM
Gosh darn it! I will NOT feed my kid in the bathroom!

That's right! I wouldn't ask anyone to eat their lunch in some nasty-arse bathroom, so don't expect me to feed my daughter in the toilet.

To moms: If the kid can articulate a complete sentence to ask for it, it's time to wean; otherwise relish in this relationship that not all women get to experience.

I have to disagree -- I believe that a child will wean themselves when they're ready. Also, you can breastfeed a toddler while setting guidelines, like only nursing when you're at home. Breast is best, regardless of the age of the child.

I was at the dr's office yesterday and I made everyone uncomfortable by nursing my daughter in the waiting room. 1) I was discreet and threw a blanket over my shoulder. 2) I was in a pediatrician's office -- hello? If I can't get support from them, then where can I expect to get support?

Ugh.

~Sharon

KellyK
05-24-2005, 10:03 PM
To moms: If the kid can articulate a complete sentence to ask for it, it's time to wean; otherwise relish in this relationship that not all women get to experience.
What happened to "This is America & butt out of my right to life, liberty & pursuit of happiness" Hildegard?? :P

I think this is a VERY personal decision, and Im sure that moms do alot of their own research on the subject either way.... And, I think just the act of CONSIDERING that informed decision either way shows a great dedication to one's children.

midnightskyfibers
05-24-2005, 10:27 PM
I wont comment on the breastfeeding (past did you see the knitty surprise?) since im not and dont plan to ever be the parent of a child under the age of 3 :)

As for peta, i can say as an advocate for animal's rights that i hate the group. Like what people think of when they think radical feminist is how people are being trained to think of veg*ns (wether you choose to eat dairy or no).

To me, i beleive in the idea of ecofeminism, which means that (paraphrasing here) you treat humynity and nature equally (bringing the mind and body back together as equals....), which means (without going into a long story) that its ok for people to eat meat if its necessary for their survival, but i dont since i dont need meat.

(actually, I used to be very anemic & sick before I became vegetarain, not i am no longer anemic and blood tests (before and after) prove that i am healthier)

Treatment of animals: unless you KNOW the farmer so you know the animals are treated fairly, know what they eat, know the places of production (ensure that workers are treated fairly), etc then its all bs. Im sorry, but people can whine all they want, but im not going to stop buying animals products cause its from animals- theres lots of factors to it (which is why i shop local, indie, organic/all nat when possible), not just animal treatment, and to me just looking at that one issue really limits yourself so you end up not being able to make a difference.

And I own a fur coat.

And yes I inherited it. and several stoles (complete with the glass eyes...). I cant touch them- they creep me out! (my cats on the other hand...)

ekgheiy
05-24-2005, 10:28 PM
WOW :shock: This post has really developed since I left work. :mrgreen:

To Kelly's List:

I cannot STAND this President.
>ekgheiy: I'm rather indifferent.

I am against violence of ANY kind, including this war.
>ekgheiy: Does cursing count as violence? :?? I can curse like a sailor :oops: :rofl:

I am pro-choice, not necessarily pro-abortion.
>ekgheiy: Pro-choice and pro-abortion. We're over-populated (in counting) as is. :(

I do not agree with all of the dogma imposed by the catholic church.
>ekgheiy: I don't know what that dogma is. :?? Besides, I probably wouldn't care too much even if I knew. I'm either agnostic or atheistic ...
I haven't yet made up my mind. :thinking: But atheism is winning thus far.

I am FOR the legal and societal recognition of same-sex marriage.
>ekgheiy: Me too. I say, "To each's own" :)

After all I said about animal cruely issues above, I still eat meat, but not veal.
>ekgheiy: You've got a vegetarian over her :thumbsup:. If you put me in the room with a turkey and ask me to kill it for Thanksgiving, I wouldn't be able to do it. So I feel like I don't deserve to buy one at the grocery store. Ask me to milk a cow or simply shave a sheep, give me the bucket so I can get my cheese and give me the clippers so I can shave that sheep. :lol: (I actually don't buy wool anyway, so I guess I really wouldn't shave the sheep ... but you get my point ;)). And what about eggs, you ask. Well ... if I'm pro-abortion, how can I NOT fry up an omelette? :rofl:

I am for the death penalty, but also feel that this judicial system needs some reform before we can REALLY be sure that those who have been "proven guilty" are truly guilty.
>ekgheiy: If it means that I don't have to worry about a new age Jack the Ripper, Manson, Dahmer (etc) sneaking up on me as I carry my milk, cheese, and eggs to my fuel efficient (yet gas powered) car, then yep ... I'm for the dealth penalty too. But I do worry about a truly innocent person being on The Green Mile. :( There's got to ways to avoid this. :thinking:

I am no longer a pot smoker, but think marajuana should be de-criminalized.
>ekgheiy: I've never smoked any. The smell gives me a pounding headache, accompanied by a case of nausea.

Two things really make me angry...child neglect and fur coats.
>ekgheiy: I don't like children, but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be taken care of. If you have them ... TAKE CARE OF THEM. (And keep them away from people who don't like children). I am really bothered by people who assume that since I'm a woman, I must like children. STOP THAT!! That maternal instinct doesn't apply to every woman. :rollseyes: Fur coats anger me too! It's just unnecessary.

I dont think all homeless people are "just lazy"
>ekgheiy: Neither do I. I have had occasion to face that possibility. :verysad: On the other hand, I do get angered at seeing the same people sequestering money on numerous occasionds too.

Well, okay...three things....SUVs in the city. They guzzle natural resources and I cant see from my normal-sized car when Im turning a corner or pulling out of a parking spot.
>ekgheiy: I've never considered SUVs in the city. :thinking:

Addition:
Breast feeding in public:
>ekgheiy: I am one of those who are repulsed by it. Yes, it is a natural thing ... but so is bugger picking, farting, cleaning, etc. Just because it's "natural" doesn't mean it needs to be done in the middle of a restaurant. That's why most places have "Family Rooms" in addition to rest rooms nowadays.

Animal Testing:
>ekgheiy: (okay ... get ready ... set ... DUCK ... ) Surely mass murders and other such vile creatures can be put to good use. :??


***ekgheiy runs to the corner and ducks the tomatoes***

:hiding: :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
:oo: .... :oo: .... :oo: ....:oo:

Hildegard_von_Knittin
05-24-2005, 10:44 PM
my "if they can ask for it" comment was a JOKE btw... :-)

Nuno930
05-24-2005, 10:45 PM
ekgheiy: I am one of those who are repulsed by it. Yes, it is a natural thing ... but so is bugger picking, farting, cleaning, etc. Just because it's "natural" doesn't mean it needs to be done in the middle of a restaurant. That's why most places have "Family Rooms" in addition to rest rooms nowadays.

Please, please, please do not equate feeding a child to picking your nose. It's not the same. And again, when the rest of the world eats in the unsanitary restroom (call it a family room if you will -- I won't even use a public restroom let alone let my child eat there) That said there is a tastefull way to nurse and 99% of the time no one (husband included) knew I was feeding her.

Nuno930
05-24-2005, 10:50 PM
my "if they can ask for it" comment was a JOKE btw... :-)

So... is 8 to old then :??


hahahahaha, I actually know someone who did BF till then. Well I didn't "know" her but she was on a atachment parenting board I am on.

brendajos
05-24-2005, 11:02 PM
wow what a great group. i have forums i belong to where conversations like this would have turned ugly very quickly. how great to see everybody conversing without acrimony!

as far as breast feeding goes, the world has been doing it for thousands of years and is the better for it. there is no way it is okay to insist a mom take her baby into a room where most of us aren't comfortable sitting down or touching the door handle. i wouldn't even pump in there unless it was an extreme emergency (btw...no kids so for me this is hypothetical...lol)...my best friend has breast fed all of her children until they were at least one year old and they have a wonderful relationship...she has been able to comfort them in the most natural way when they were getting their shots...and she is very good at being descreet...i am pretty sure that i am the only one outside the family that she doesn't hide it from (for the most part...i mean she isn't flashin' the boobies at me...sheesh! ;) ) she feeds them in church, in the store, at the restaurant...and nobody has died or gotten sick from it.

it is a great world that we live in that we still get to make some choices. i could go on forever on politics but it could get ugly so i wont...lol....suffice it to say, i agree with Kelly...in a VERY strong way...very strong...

very....





very...





strong





verrrrrrrrrrrrry

Hildegard_von_Knittin
05-24-2005, 11:07 PM
heheh. you said boobies.

brendajos
05-24-2005, 11:13 PM
lmao...i was wondering which of you was going to be the first to say something...



ya know my friend Liz had a web store she started for probreastfeeding clothes for babies. I wish i had saved the picture of her oldest. he was wearing the romper that said "My mom's too lazy to fix a bottle." he was sitting on the floor with two fingers in his mouth looking absolutely pathetic...and the picture was in b&w making it look even sadder...it is hilarrrrrrrrrrrrious!

of course all my friends who are having babies get a selection of clothes from her rompers just to help nudge them in that direction....lol

ekgheiy
05-24-2005, 11:18 PM
heheh. you said boobies. :rofling: :roflhard:

MaggieL
05-26-2005, 09:32 PM
O.K., everyone grab the smelling salts and chill pills . . .here it goes :shock:

I don't hate the current administration :|

I eat meat :blush:

I can't stand people who abuse or neglect animals :evil: , but will kill a mouse to protect my home

I don't believe in abortion or same sex marriages – but I have friends and family who have had and participate in one or both AND it’s NONE of my business. I do not judge others :fingerwag: and usually keep my opinions to myself. :oo:

My opinions are my own and not of the majority … I walk to a beat of my own. AND my motto is “Don’t let others dictate who you are…”

***Maggie ducks and heads for the door just incase someone starts throwing things.***

ekgheiy
05-26-2005, 10:17 PM
...My opinions are my own and not of the majority … I walk to a beat of my own. AND my motto is “Don’t let others dictate who you are…” You go gurl! :mrgreen:

hedgehog
05-26-2005, 10:38 PM
wow... hadn't checked this thread but just noticed that breast-feeding was added to the mix...

Hmmm... I'm of the mind that yes, it's natural and that women should do it when they need to, and it's crucial for a well-prepared immune system early on in life, etc... However, discretion is the better part of valor in my mind. I mean, when my sister used to breast feed while out she'd either cover herself with a blanket over her shoulder or go back to her SUV ( :mad: bone of contention) with dark windows. She was very polite and courteous about it and it was never a big deal.

I don't know... If some woman were to be sitting in Starbucks and just reached in and flopped out her breast with only a pastey covering her nipple (a la Lil' Kim or worse, Janet Jackson and her piercing) and just sat there i'd be quite disconcerted; just as others would be if i chose to do so. :blush: And yeah, i know that having the nipple covered is not totally indecent, but just about. To me, breast feeding a baby is merely using a larger "pastey" but it's still someone sitting there, boob(s) out. ;)

A simple blanket makes things far nicer for others.... And it's a great knitting project!! ;)

Again, my $0.02...

-hh

KellyK
05-26-2005, 11:07 PM
If some woman were to be sitting in Starbucks and just reached in and flopped out her breast with only a pastey covering her nipple and just sat there i'd be quite disconcerted;
I SWEAR the first time I read this, I thought you had written PASTRY. :roflhard:
Starbucks DOES have good lemon bars!!

Ive never seen a woman just flop her boob out on a table in public....Im sure a cover of some sort, including nursing tops, is more comfortable for a mom, too.

brendajos
05-26-2005, 11:30 PM
lol....pastry....

can we talk about the evil that is Starbucks now? and while we are at it, WalMart? :rofl:



anything else we wanna get outta the way? (well i can politicize for hours but that is beside the point...lol)

hedgehog
05-26-2005, 11:30 PM
A baby cant eat through a "pastey" :??

No, the baby IS the equivalent of a pastey/sticker. PASTRY!!!! LOL!!! :rofling: That's hilarious... "I'd like a grande chai latte and 2 honey buns for my chest please.. thanks!"

*shrug* Anyway, s'all the same to me and i have the same reaction to it - exposed breast in public with the nipple covered either by pastey/sticker (scenario 1) or baby (scenario 2).

If i want to see that kinda stuff ill seek it out myself, thanks! The internet is full of it - LOL!



I'm beginning to fear ya, KellyK! :shifty: LOL! ;) Or perhaps i need to work on my analogies... i'm on summer break and the mind doesn't work as well!

-hh

KellyK
05-26-2005, 11:34 PM
I'm beginning to fear ya, KellyK! :shifty: LOL! ;) Or perhaps i need to work on my analogies... i'm on summer break and the mind doesn't work as well!

:roflhard:
I think I need to work on my delivery of sarcasm! :shifty: I was KIDDING!

I guess I dont feel like they are the same...one (pastey or pastry or whatever) is intended to be "sexy", and breastfeeding is NOT.

hedgehog
05-26-2005, 11:47 PM
can we talk about the evil that is Starbucks now?

Ok, lemme just say that i have no long-standing beef with Starbucks (and i know you were being sarcastic, brenda), but i HAVE to say one thing.

Have you all seen that new commercial with the Hank guy? The commercial centers around a very well-known bit of music that they play all the time at US sporting events by Gary Glitter. In the commerical it's some guy (Hank) going for a job interview and "fans" sporadically chant "Hank" in time with the music.

WELL, the songwriter, Gary Glitter, is a CONVICTED CHILD PORN collector and distributor who served time in a UK jail in 1999/2000. He's since been released and put on the UK sex offenders list. However, upon release he moved to CAMBODIA where he is giving the Cambodian government trouble due to his... ahem... predilictions involving young boys. :evil: He and his troubles with SE Asian governments are kinda regulars in the British news but i don't think Americans know anything about it.

So everytime that song is played at major sporting events (you hear it A LOT at NBA games) and on tv commercials (eg: Starbucks) this known PEDOPHILE is sitting back and collecting big royalties.

I can't believe Starbucks will harp on and on about free trade but will pay out royalties to such an odious creature.

It makes my stomach turn... I think i'm gonna have to write them a little letter....

Sorry.. i'll stop now... :? Just had to purge that litttle info cuz it really angers me :evil: ....

-hh

gardenia
05-26-2005, 11:49 PM
it is a great world that we live in that we still get to make some choices. i could go on forever on politics but it could get ugly so i wont...lol....suffice it to say, i agree with Kelly...in a VERY strong way...very strong...

Me three! :cheering: I can't believe I just noticed this thread.

As for the breastfeeding issue, I have been with a covered (wearing head scarf, not much flesh showing) Muslim friend twice at busy restaurants with her baby. When baby was fussy and hungry, my friend would breastfeed her. She always tried to face away from people and be as discreet as possible, but when it's time to eat, it's time to eat. :-) I'm not sure what my point was...I guess that modesty is very, very important to her, but she would never consider *not* feeding her child or feeding her in a filthy bathroom.

I think I'm too sleepy to type. I also am impressed at how civil this conversation has remained. :notworthy:

javede
05-27-2005, 02:25 AM
I too just rediscovered this thread.
My opinions used to be very strong, but I know think that I've become more tolerant(atleast I try to!). Erveryone is free to have their own opinion and I'm definately not the one to convince them otherwise. But I do give mine if asked and mostly then get quite passionate about it :oops:

I think it was Kelly who asked if the toppic of breastfeeding was a big deal overseas. Well, I'm "overseas"(or are you :D ) and I think there was(is) a little debate over here, but generally people don't bother.
As for nakedness(is that the right word?) europeans tend to be more open to it, like tv, at the beach etc.
But there has been a lil change in TV. What comes to my mind is that video from R.Kelly a few years back with all the naked woman. At first MTV and our german local music channel VIVA refused to show it uncensored...then on public demand they showed it late at night....then one of them, I think it was VIVA also showed it on day.
Of course there were people complaining about it, but most really didn't cared.

VickiIL
05-27-2005, 07:36 AM
That's definitely a big hesitation for me (besides that whole birthing thing). Do you or don't you breast feed? It's good for the baby, hard on the mom (emotionally I've heard) and uncomfortable in public situations.



Why would breastfeeding be hard on the mom? I breastfed all three of my babies. The first one I quit at 9 months and we did formula for 3 months. Let me tell you, THAT WAS HARD ON THE MOM!

With my other two (and for 9 months with the first one) I never had to make bottles, warm bottles, wash bottles, carry around bottles, etc. Not to mention that it is perfectly designed for baby.

Also about nursing in public. Most of the time no one even knew I was nursing my kids. It can be done VERY discretely.

suziehomemaker
05-27-2005, 08:57 AM
Why would breastfeeding be hard on the mom? I breastfed all three of my babies. The first one I quit at 9 months and we did formula for 3 months. Let me tell you, THAT WAS HARD ON THE MOM!
I didn't want to say it but when my SIL had her first child she tried breast feeding for 2 days and finally stopped. She said that she felt like a cow with utters feeding her child.

I have absolutely no experience with this and when/if I have a child I'm definitley going to try breast feeding. I'm just gathering all of the information I can now. One of my friends did it for awhile because it helped her lose the weight she gained during the pregnancy. That's motivation for me to try it!



_____
The Mod Squad was here :thumbsup:.

gimmesanity
05-27-2005, 11:30 AM
*shrug* Anyway, s'all the same to me and i have the same reaction to it - exposed breast in public with the nipple covered either by pastey/sticker (scenario 1) or baby (scenario 2).

How is it the same? An exposed boob with a pastey is done for shock value, $$, attention, etc. A baby nursing at a mother's breast is getting nourishment the way Mother Nature intended it to be.

If boobs are going to be sexualized, at least do it with the understanding that boobs are a way of providing food for our offspring first. All that sex stuff is just our society's way of objectifying a woman's body. Objectify all you want, but we shouldn't stop other women or look down on them for wanting to provide the best for their babies.

Oh, and yes, Starbucks is evil, evil, evil...but, it does have awesome lemon bars.

~Sharon

ekgheiy
05-27-2005, 12:53 PM
... I didn't want to say it but when my SIL had her first child she tried breast feeding for 2 days and finally stopped. She said that she felt like a cow with utters feeding her child...Hm :thinking: SIL read my mind... :rofling: It's so nice to know that someone else thinks like me... *giggle*

hedgehog
05-27-2005, 01:21 PM
Hmmm... methinks i should have just kept my mouth shut. :shifty: Or is that my big fingers tied?? ;)

How is it the same? An exposed boob with a pastey is done for shock value, $$, attention, etc. A baby nursing at a mother's breast is getting nourishment the way Mother Nature intended it to be.

I agree - two totally different reasons. But it doesn't mean everyone wants to see either scenarios necessarily. Mother nature didn't give us clothes either but we're not all nudists! :) ;)

If boobs are going to be sexualized, at least do it with the understanding that boobs are a way of providing food for our offspring first. All that sex stuff is just our society's way of objectifying a woman's body.

Again, i agree.

Objectify all you want,

who?? me?? :?? ;) LOL

but we shouldn't stop other women or look down on them for wanting to provide the best for their babies.

I personally don't look down on them.. and as a biologist i think breastfeeding is a great thing.... i just think that discretion is the better part of valor - baby gets fed, the squeamish don't get squiffy... it's a win-win situation to me! LOL.. :) *shrug*

feministmama
05-27-2005, 03:41 PM
Wow. There was only a few posts on this thread the other day and now.......

Well as a professional feminist, I will add my .02.

My belief system is based on theories of domination and power. Whatever the issues, breast feeding, Corporations making $$, SUV's, Presidents, etc. I look at how power is distributed. Who has the power to make the decscion about breadtfeeding in public? Who gets to shape public opinion about it? Then I ask Who benefits by this shaping of the discussion? Still with me?

Then there is the whole concept of compassion. Where there is domination, there is no compassion. So if we're talking about death row, homeless, etc then I have to ask who has the power to shape public opion about how much compassion we show to our most vulnerable populations.

I define feminism as the movement to end sexism and oppression. Defined this way provides a lens to view topics rather than reorting to "you're a republican, you're wrong blah blah blah" If there is sexsim happening then there is a lens at work there examinig the power differences of the situation. Get it? So instead of saying Bush is this or that, we can say Bush is operating under a domination paradigm. He benefits form patriarchy (institutionalized sexism) so he continues his practices. If we were to adopt a feminist lens which includes compassion then he would be working to end domination.

Does this make sense?

ekgheiy
05-27-2005, 04:06 PM
I agree - two totally different reasons. But it doesn't mean everyone wants to see either scenarios necessarily. Mother nature didn't give us clothes either but we're not all nudists! :) ;) :thumbsup:

ekgheiy
05-27-2005, 04:08 PM
Wow. There was only a few posts on this thread the other day and now........etc........Does this make sense? Um .... :oops: I tried to follow. :oops: But I tripped. Perhaps I've been out of college too long. :lol: :lol:

Nuno930
05-27-2005, 07:48 PM
:roflhard: As I am reading this I am sipping on my Double Venti Raspberry Latte , (skinny, no whip ;) )

amy
05-28-2005, 09:32 AM
Oh man! I typed up a long post, about all these issues, and lost it! Drat!

Well, first I want to say WOW, you all are AWESOME. :heart: I commend you all for sharing your feelings, especially those of you who walk to the beat of your own drummer. I think it takes real courage to speak up anywhere, even here, and say "I disagree with you all." :thumbsup: I'm also so psyched that folks are so mature here, and no one's judging or putting down anyone else. It's wonderful to see and participate in! This kind of discussion can change the world, I think. Because only in a place like this, do people actually listen to and learn from each other. Makes me want to start a new forum for this kind of discussion!

Should I?

Basically, I agree with everything KellyK said in her first long post. I wish I didn't loose my long post on a few of the topics. I'll just mention what seems the hot topic: Breastfeeding in public.

I am VERY for this! Whether done discreetly or not, this is done for the health of a baby, and should be at least tollerated if not applauded wholeheartedly. For those who are uncomfortable with it: I think it's natural in our society to be uncomfortable with it. I also think it will become no big deal as people see it more. Just like anything new. Hey, some folks are uncomfortable with Men knitting! They just need to see it more. It's all about what we're used to seeing. Women wearing pants used to be quite shocking. Now it's not. Women in France lay on the beach topless and it's not considered erotic, it's just what's done.

I say: breast feed, the more public the better! My understanding is there are huge benefits for the baby, and many for the mom, and the more women that do it the better, so we should all support it. And doing it in public promotes it. So it's a service to the baby, and to society in my opinion! :thumbsup:

kimmie
05-28-2005, 09:44 AM
Amy,
I read your post and felt the urge to jump up and yell, "Amen, Sister Amy!" I was going to add my opinions, but you just said it all more eloquently than I ever could.
kimmie

amy
05-28-2005, 10:46 AM
:D Amen Kimmie!

Julie
05-28-2005, 11:45 AM
Makes me want to start a new forum for this kind of discussion! Should I?

Amy, I know you don't want the forums to get totally out of hand (number wise) but I think a lot of us would enjoy an OT forum. :thumbsup:

VickiIL
05-28-2005, 12:40 PM
I say: breast feed, the more public the better! My understanding is there are huge benefits for the baby, and many for the mom, and the more women that do it the better, so we should all support it. And doing it in public promotes it. So it's a service to the baby, and to society in my opinion! :thumbsup:


:cheering: :cheering: :cheering: :cheering: :cheering: :cheering:
Well said!

brendajos
05-28-2005, 01:20 PM
yeah see i just don't know how we have managed to make breastfeeding into something that is shameful and should be done hidden away in a room someplace. Meanwhile people are running around in clothes that show all the goodies and that is perfectly acceptable.

Gatomoso
05-28-2005, 04:46 PM
Wow! I never thought that my breastfeeding hot topic would ever generate so much talk (write?)!

I have only gotten a few comments since most of the time you could never even guess I was breast feeding - I wear these awesome tops made by Boob (in Sweden, I think) and all I do is discreetly slide out my "boob" and my kid eats! (pic attached) But the times I have gotten comments or stares or something, I am highly resentful. I don't eat out often and when I do, I try to nurse the kid before we head out, but if she has to eat, I don't see why I have to hide in the bathroom. It can be very isolating and maddening to stay in all the time with the kid, so if our society can be a little more tolerant of the breastfeeding, it would be very welcome. I suspect some baby blues and Post-partum depression would not emerge if we nurser-types didn't feel like we couldn't go out without generating hostility.

As for the emotional difficulties, I have had every kind of problem breastfeeding (plugged ducts, milk blisters, thrush, nursing strike, bottle strike, cracked nipples, etc.) but I cannot say I ever found it emotionally taxing; physically taxing definitely, but emotionally, not really. I did feel a bit Bessie (mooo!) like for a while and when my kid was only a few weeks old, she would latch on to feed with such force and gusto, I frequently felt like a host to a little parasite. I would catch some negativity for expressing this, but, it's what I felt and therefore, legitimate! So, I embraced my little parasite and acknowledged my bovinity and worked with it!

So, if breast-feeding in public generates a strong reaction out of you, please, please, oh please, don't let the mom know. Sometimes, we have no choice but to nurse in public and sometimes we need to get out to keep the last threads of sanity in place. In fact, if you can muster it, smile at the mom and knock out the weirdos who are ogling her or making her feel badly!
Thanks!

brendajos
05-28-2005, 04:52 PM
lol....Gato, my friend Angie embraced her Bessie nickname with gusto! I think she felt most like "Bessie" when she went back to work and was pumping for the next 10 months. When she stopped breastfeeding and our friend Ashley got pregnant and decided to nurse she passed on the Bessie title!

btw...what a beautifully dressed baby!

Gatomoso
05-28-2005, 06:03 PM
btw...what a beautifully dressed baby!

Ya got me! My whole agenda all along was to show of my kid's hand-knit sweater and hat!

:blush:

kimmie
05-28-2005, 08:28 PM
Gatomoso -
What a beautiful, beautiful picture. That made my day.
kimmie

Gatomoso
06-01-2005, 12:05 PM
Thanks. It is discreet, no?

gimmesanity
06-01-2005, 01:37 PM
Gat, I LOVE that pic. I've yet to get any pics of Nia nursing. I've also yet to nurse her in public for real - I've nursed her in my car and in the dressing rooms at the mall, but never just out and about. Never really had to.

I agree with you about the whole post-partum bluesy thing. I wasn't expecting to feel SO isolated when Nia was first born. I was scared to go out with her at first because *gasp!* what if she got hungry? Where would I feed her? What if we were in the middle of the supermarket or the mall? It's such a silly fear. I really wish breastfeeding was as casually accepted here as it is in other countries...

~Sharon

benniesma
06-01-2005, 01:38 PM
As for the emotional difficulties, I have had every kind of problem breastfeeding (plugged ducts, milk blisters, thrush, nursing strike, bottle strike, cracked nipples, etc.) but I cannot say I ever found it emotionally taxing; physically taxing definitely, but emotionally, not really.

I nursed both my kids, and in a way I do think it did have its emotional issues. I hesitate to say taxing though. I found it very draining to be needed all the time. Sometimes I still feel like that, and my kids are 4 1/2 and 2 1/2. Hey kids, your dad can pour you a glass of juice just as good as mom. Just ask him! :rollseyes:


I don't hate the current administration :|

I eat meat :blush:

I can't stand people who abuse or neglect animals :evil: , but will kill a mouse to protect my home

I don't believe in abortion or same sex marriages – but I have friends and family who have had and participate in one or both AND it’s NONE of my business. I do not judge others :fingerwag: and usually keep my opinions to myself. :oo:

My opinions are my own and not of the majority … I walk to a beat of my own. AND my motto is “Don’t let others dictate who you are…”


I'm with you Maggie! (Although I struggle with the same sex marriage issue.)

Amy, I think an OT forum would be great! I hope it wouldn't be too much work though. We need to watch out for your carpal tunnel!