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Jan in CA
08-07-2007, 10:45 AM
~~Copyright for Knitters~~
http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/co...copyrfaq4.html (http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/copyright/copyrfaq4.html)

The subject of a raffle/donation/auction has come up recently so I thought I'd share this. It's important.

Recently it came up in the "Knit Baby Surprise" Yahoo forum asking about knitting a Baby Surprise Jacket for auction. The pattern owner/publisher (Meg Swansen) was contacted and she denied permission. Most patterns can be used for straight donation, but if there is an exchange of money, and even if that money is donated to charity, it was not acceptable. This particular incidence applied only to the BSJ, but other pattern writers may feel the same.

IMO... As long as the item isn't for personal gain I don't see a problem, but it's not my decision. :shrug:

So bottom line is to contact the pattern writer for permission. It usually just involves an email. And to be on the safe side, save the email if permission is given. :wink:

ekgheiy
08-07-2007, 11:21 AM
~~Copyright for Knitters~~
http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/co...copyrfaq4.html (http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/copyright/copyrfaq4.html)

The subject of a raffle/donation/auction has come up recently so I thought I'd share this. It's important.

Recently it came up in the "Knit Baby Surprise" Yahoo forum asking about knitting a Baby Surprise Jacket for auction. The pattern owner/publisher (Meg Swansen) was contacted and she denied permission. Most patterns can be used for straight donation, but if there is an exchange of money, and even if that money is donated to charity, it was not acceptable. This particular incidence applied only to the BSJ, but other pattern writers may feel the same.

IMO... As long as the item isn't for personal gain I don't see a problem, but it's not my decision. :shrug:

So bottom line is to contact the pattern writer for permission. It usually just involves an email. And to be on the safe side, save the email if permission is given. :wink:
Certain elements of the knit copyright issue really pi$$ me off. :grrr:It is extremely disturbing that "copyright" denies me the right to sell an item that I spent hours, days, weeks, months or years making. The authors own the pattern; how is it fair that they own every single item made from the pattern?!!? I just don't get it. :shrug: Based on the "ownership of materials used" concept, then what's to stop "patent" from denying knitters the right to sell even their own designs just because they've used Addi Turbos to physically make the item? While I understand copyright prohibits photocopying or otherwise replicating patterns for various intents, this "can't sell your knitted work" copyright thing is especially ridiculous when you take into account a "basketweave baby blanket" or "raglan sweater" or any other patterns that are quite generic in concept.
:gah:

Stiney
08-07-2007, 11:31 AM
If you are making a basket-weave baby blanket, that's not copyrighted. Basket-weave is a stitch pattern, and is considering "public domain." If you were to write down a pattern and say "Use x yarn, y size needles, cast on z stitches, knit garter stitch for 7 rows, and knit a 7 stitch garter border on all rows, <basketweave instructions> for 49 rows, knit 7 garter rows, and bind off," that'd be a pattern.

But "basketweave stitch" and "raglan sweater" aren't copyrighted...they are techniques. It's the sum total that makes a pattern copyrighted.

Braden
08-07-2007, 11:31 AM
I understand both sides of the argument here:

For one, pattern writers don't want knitters selling something that was really made from their work, and taking credit for it.

Second, knitters have made the item, why not get to sell it? The actual knitting is your work, so why shouldn't you be able to sell/donate/etc?

I've been in both of these situations, but to tell you the truth, I wouldn't worry too much about selling generic items, like, say, toe up socks, raglan sweaters/baby blankets, unless the designer has completely made up a new design concept or stitch pattern, because, who'll know? I've sold sweaters made from Elizabeth Zimmermann's percentage system, but just to make sure I could, I called Meg Swansen, and she said it was not only legal, but encouraged! So, don't worry about generic items, no one can tell if they're made from a pattern/percentages, etc. They're just plain items with no special concept behind them.

Wahlee
08-07-2007, 11:36 AM
It's actually not necessarily an issue of copyright, but one of intellectual property rights. If you've spent months working out the perfect pattern for a sweater, how would you feel if someone else made a profit on it? It's like taking a Jane Austen novel, putting your name on it, and selling it on Lulu, or trying to pass off a Beatles song as your own. Even in cases where the authors are allowing the pattern use for free, it's still a matter of giving credit where credit is due.

Stiney
08-07-2007, 11:40 AM
It's actually not necessarily an issue of copyright, but one of intellectual property rights. If you've spent months working out the perfect pattern for a sweater, how would you feel if someone else made a profit on it? It's like taking a Jane Austen novel, putting your name on it, and selling it on Lulu, or trying to pass off a Beatles song as your own. Even in cases where the authors are allowing the pattern use for free, it's still a matter of giving credit where credit is due.

Copyright IS an intellectual property right. :teehee:

redheadrachel
08-07-2007, 11:48 AM
How much would you have to change up something before it stops being their pattern and becomes your own creation? Like, if you took someone's very basic bag pattern, but put a fair isle or intarsia chart on it, it would become a very different bag. You may use their shaping, but if that's just like "CO 50 stitches, increase every five rows" or something, but then that's so generic it could almost be from any pattern. That's the biggest thing I don't understand. If you take someone's pattern for a basic baby sweater but add some cabling or something, is it still their baby sweater?

Jan in CA
08-07-2007, 11:52 AM
Maybe this section will help, Rachel.
http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/copyright/copyrfaq7.html

How much would you have to change up something before it stops being their pattern and becomes your own creation? Like, if you took someone's very basic bag pattern, but put a fair isle or intarsia chart on it, it would become a very different bag. You may use their shaping, but if that's just like "CO 50 stitches, increase every five rows" or something, but then that's so generic it could almost be from any pattern. That's the biggest thing I don't understand. If you take someone's pattern for a basic baby sweater but add some cabling or something, is it still their baby sweater?

redheadrachel
08-07-2007, 11:54 AM
Thanks Jan! You always know the perfect websites to steer people in the right direction :)

Braden
08-07-2007, 11:55 AM
IMO if the pattern is completely unrecognizeable, then it becomes your pattern. If you use everything else, but just add some cabling or something, it's still theirs. But, if you changed it so drastically as to add a stranded/intarsia/mosaic chart, then I believe it's your pattern.

dreamsherl
08-07-2007, 11:57 AM
If you are making a basket-weave baby blanket, that's not copyrighted. Basket-weave is a stitch pattern, and is considering "public domain." If you were to write down a pattern and say "Use x yarn, y size needles, cast on z stitches, knit garter stitch for 7 rows, and knit a 7 stitch garter border on all rows, <basketweave instructions> for 49 rows, knit 7 garter rows, and bind off," that'd be a pattern.

But "basketweave stitch" and "raglan sweater" aren't copyrighted...they are techniques. It's the sum total that makes a pattern copyrighted.


Thanks, I was going to ask a question about this. I plan to make shrugs and other knitted items and wanted to know if the actual stitches were copyrighted.

rebecca
08-07-2007, 12:04 PM
I, and most others that I find that design patterns, as well ask that you not sell items made from their designs for profit. I've given permission to some very nice knitters who have emailed me to ask if the FOs could be sold in auctions/craft fairs for worthy causes. But, I offer my patterns for free and for personal use, I don't think it fair for anyone to make $ off of something that I designed and very nicely offered for free. Which is why I state this on all of my patterns. I'm pretty sure you will find this to be pretty universal.
I've found some of the FOs from my designs being sold on Etsy and the one of the people even told me that I wasn't the designer!
Sorry, I in no way mean to cause any dissension, just hopping in with the designer's view.

redheadrachel
08-07-2007, 12:09 PM
Yeah it's very valid, and I'm glad to hear the designer's point of view. I don't want to take any of the credit or rights from the designer if I'm not the designer, which is why I posed the question about altering patterns in the first place.
I think the link that Jan provided was a very good explanation of the laws, and it really clarified a few things for me. Good stuff :thumbsup:

Silver
08-07-2007, 12:10 PM
It's like taking a Jane Austen novel, putting your name on it, and selling it on Lulu, or trying to pass off a Beatles song as your own.
It is absolutely not the same as claiming authorship of a book or song. That is outright plagiarism. Using a pattern to create something yourself is a completely different matter.


And I agree that pattern copyrights are often far too restrictive. If I use a pattern to knit something, I am putting in the work myself, and if I were to sell the item, I would take credit for the work I put into it, not the design of the article.

I think there should be a clarification to the rule. I think it should be ok for me to knit an Annie Modesitt pattern and sell the finished item... once, maybe even twice. But I should not be allowed to knit the item over and over and stock my store with said item for sale in a commercial setting.

In fact, I would almost bet that this is exactly what that copyright is intended to protect against. You could always write to the author and ask "Can I knit your sweater and sell it to a friend who has asked me to knit it for her?" Chances are, the author will allow this small sale. Sure, not everyone will, but asking doesn't hurt anyone.

And on the subject, I need to add a note to my sock classes that you can take your finished socks and sell them if you want to. :thumbsup:

redheadrachel
08-07-2007, 12:14 PM
And on the subject, I need to add a note to my sock classes that you can take your finished socks and sell them if you want to. :thumbsup:
Ooh, score!!:happydance:

dustinac
08-07-2007, 12:14 PM
:oo:I might be wrong...but I always thought if it was a paid pattern if the person wanting it paid for it and then handed it to a knitter said will you knit this for me if I pay... you could as long as you gave back the pattern with the finished item and didn't make a copy for yourself? :shrug:

ekgheiy
08-07-2007, 12:23 PM
It's actually not necessarily an issue of copyright, but one of intellectual property rights. If you've spent months working out the perfect pattern for a sweater, how would you feel if someone else made a profit on it? It's like taking a Jane Austen novel, putting your name on it, and selling it on Lulu, or trying to pass off a Beatles song as your own. Even in cases where the authors are allowing the pattern use for free, it's still a matter of giving credit where credit is due.

I think I've hit a mental block. :teehee: I fail to see the novel comparison. Knitters wouldn't profit off the author's pattern; they be profiting off of their own labor. I would totally be in copyright violation if I made a bunch of photocopies of a pattern and sold the pattern (triple fold copyright infringement if I replaced the author's name with my own); but to sell the sweater that I made from the pattern? I still don't see how the author owns the right to say I can't sell the sweater.

rebecca
08-07-2007, 12:30 PM
Thanks, I was going to ask a question about this. I plan to make shrugs and other knitted items and wanted to know if the actual stitches were copyrighted.

You know, I've seen some stitch pattern books that say they are copyrighted and you are not allowed to use the st patterns...duh, what's up with that?!
Well, this is why I so love Meg Swansen and Schoolhouse Press (http://schoolhousepress.com/stitchpatts.htm), she owns Schoolhouse Press, as you know and Schoolhouse Press is the publisher of all of Barbara Walker's Treasury of Knitting Patterns books. I emailed them to ask if it was okay if I used a stitch pattern from one of the books and used it in a pattern that I offered on my blog, etc. Both Meg and another lady (sorry, can't remember her name) said that it was perfectly fine as long as I stated that Schoolhouse Press gave me permission and that the st pattern came from the Barbara Walker book I was using. Well, I found another I liked and emailed to ask permission again and Meg finally said that she had seen my patterns and I was giving credit where credit was due and I didn't have to email her to ask for permission to use these books anymore. BUT, for whatever reason, all publishers aren't like that! And, it's not like the same st patterns aren't in all of the books! (Although, an email to a publisher of another st pattern book may very well prove me wrong which would be great!)
That said, I know that if you use the Barbara Walker books and ask Schoolhouse Press then they will give you permission as long as you state where the st pattern came from.
It's as Silver said, if you get in touch with whomever the designer (or publisher) is, he/she will generally be pleasant and give you the go ahead with certain things. I always ask 1st before doing anything. I am going to use Priscilla Gibson Roberts short row heels and toes in a sock pattern, but didn't know if it was allowed, I emailed the publisher of the PGR's book and she told me that the "idea" can not be copyrighted and she gave me permission and, once again, asked that I give PGR the credit for coming up with this short row method.
LOL, all that to say, always ask 1st!

Jan in CA
08-07-2007, 12:42 PM
but to sell the sweater that I made from the pattern? I still don't see how the author owns the right to say I can't sell the sweater.

I guess you'll just have to accept that they do have the right and ask permission. Or create your own patterns and be done with it. ;)

ekgheiy
08-07-2007, 12:54 PM
I guess you'll just have to accept that they do have the right and ask permission. Or create your own patterns and be done with it. ;)
Yeah ...but I'm too stupid to create my own patterns :oops:. So if I were to subsidize the income with some knitty-buck$, I'd probably be a rebel, pick a generic and throw caution to the wind cuz I'm wicked like dat !!!! :twisted:


After all, ContiKnitter told me to ...


I've been in both of these situations, but to tell you the truth, I wouldn't worry too much about selling generic items, like, say, toe up socks, raglan sweaters/baby blankets, unless the designer has completely made up a new design concept or stitch pattern, because, who'll know? I've sold sweaters made from Elizabeth Zimmermann's percentage system, but just to make sure I could, I called Meg Swansen, and she said it was not only legal, but encouraged! So, don't worry about generic items, no one can tell if they're made from a pattern/percentages, etc. They're just plain items with no special concept behind them.


:teehee: :teehee: :teehee: :teehee:

Nichan
08-07-2007, 12:55 PM
I remember, i asked about this issue in my previous thread...

i think like this...if they don't want the pattern buyer take profit, then why sell or give the pattern?...that's my big question...
but all responds gave me great answers...that they charge the 'time' to make the project and profit is low...
but i'm still hmmm...not full disagree about totally no-sell a.k.a charity...well, i thought, the design is 'just' a design...it's a non-physical idea, yet...but when i make it physical, i also have right to decide what i'm going to do with it: sell, charity, gift, or use it myself...the designer didn't make it physical for me, he/she helps by designing it, indeed, but to make it physical?...my hands ofcourse...and moreover, sometimes (if not always), i don't use the same type of yarn...so i must make my own adjustment...and i have to use my brain for it, too...it's weird, that the designer wants profit for themselves, but hold (for a while or forever may be) the profit for the buyer...i think, they have their own space of profit...my local terms: we have our own share of profit (pattern maker and pattern user)...well, i don't know...

i think, that's ok if someone wants to sell their knit project based on bought patterns...IF just sell...but if they ADMIT it as their own design, apply a Label on the projects:fingerwag::fingerwag::fingerwag:...a-a-a...i will totally disagree...

i can't design any knit project myself right now...i'm beginner but i'm planning to buy the book about it in immediate time...

i wonder, if there's some knitters don't have to buy the pattern but can translate the design into let's say any size of sweaters...don't you think she/he deserves the 'profit' of making the adjusted PATTERN (not DESIGN)?...ofcourse, to imply the label of her/his own, he/she can't...because, basic idea is not hers/his...but i think the knitters have right to 'charge' their effort if they wish...

i think labelling has something to do with designing process...raw idea, fixed idea, making pattern, prove the pattern...or may be just raw idea and fixed idea...so, i think the suggestion given me was rational...we won't charge the design but charge the time (i say 'effort', including yarn, time (days, weeks, months...), etc)...i also would like to add, no-labelling, please...label sounds like we are the idea owner and we do it all designing process ourselves...

i'm thinking to sell my knit project but if the legal issue is like this, i think i'd rather learn how to design one.:oo:...
i'm living in asia, i just feel discouraged first to email the writer...well, the culture is different and too far far away to control it...i'm not sure she/he will trust me...

for me, permission is like courtesy for me and their admit to my design/work...they want to use it and they have to ask my permission...(like if our neighbour want to use our tools, they must ask for our permission, right?...) moreover...it's like a control tool that they won't put label of their own on my design/work...that's not fair if happens...

i think i need knit designer speaks here and tells something about this from his/her side...

short story about copyright and patent issue:
i understand the feeling about copyright issue from the designer side...i have case in my country where our traditional fabric and FOOD are copyrighted(or patent it)by malaysia and japan...weird...it's our traditionals, it's like 'everyone' knew that, why they copyright it?...besides...all batik makers in my country still a lot...i even learned once about it...and every batiks motif has it's own story and meanings...like they know about it?...it's not their custom...it's...tooo...weird...now, my country and traditional art lover fight for defensing other batiks type (motif) to be copyrighted...batiks have been our traditional art for hundred or may be more than a thousand year!...lucky us...we have a lot of batiks motif...we can still save them by ofcourse make patents and/or copyrights...

yeah, i think sometimes the user must know their position...as i said, it's all about courtesy and acknowledge, and profit share...i won't mind if malaysia or japan make profit by selling those traditional stuff but to own the patent and/or copyright...:nails:...sorry for people from there...it's weird...very-very weird...

iza
08-07-2007, 12:57 PM
I think the way we have to see it, is that the price asked for a pattern will change if the knitters use it for personal use or for making money. Take the extreme situation: you wrote a pattern and Wal Mart is interested in it. You wanted to sell it 5$ for knitters, but there's no way you would sell the pattern 5$ to Wal Mart who would use a single machine to make millions of copies (and tons of money), right? I think it's the same thing here. If people make money with the pattern, the price asked for the pattern should be more. That's normal, and it's like that in many other fields (software, for instance, have sometimes different prices for personal or commercial use). Since it can be hard to evaluate for knitted items, it's probably easier to restrict the use.

At least that's how I understand it. :shrug:

Lisa Kay
08-07-2007, 01:39 PM
So now I'm curious...what about all of the knitted items I've seen that people have entered in the county fair? The ones that win 1st, 2nd and 3rd usually receive some small monetary award as their prize (maybe $5 or $10). Have they all either knitted something in public domain, or created their own pattern, or asked permission of the designer? :shrug:

rebecca
08-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Yeah ...but I'm too stupid to create my own patterns :oops:.



GIRL!!! Ya know if I didn't have this bum leg (hip, ankles, etc, LOL!) I'd KICK YOUR BUTT for saying you are that s word!!!! :fingerwag: Shame on you, woman, now ..... take it back!!!:muah: Cause you are not, you are wonderful :hug:

rebecca
08-07-2007, 01:45 PM
So now I'm curious...what about all of the knitted items I've seen that people have entered in the county fair? The ones that win 1st, 2nd and 3rd usually receive some small monetary award as their prize (maybe $5 or $10). Have they all either knitted something in public domain, or created their own pattern, or asked permission of the designer? :shrug:


Oh, very good question!!! I still say...ask, ask, ask for all things, that's my policy.
But, who knows :shrug: if they did or did not?!

ekgheiy
08-07-2007, 02:11 PM
GIRL!!! Ya know if I didn't have this bum leg (hip, ankles, etc, LOL!) I'd KICK YOUR BUTT for saying you are that s word!!!! :fingerwag: Shame on you, woman, now ..... take it back!!!:muah: Cause you are not, you are wonderful :hug:


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_18_7.gif

kemp
08-07-2007, 02:29 PM
The site that Jan sited is one I often use for reference. I think this section sums up some of the most frequent questions I've seen here and other places...systems or processes (turning a heel, raglan sweater, etc) and utilitarian items (socks, hats, mittens, etc) This particular section of her copyright article is well worth reading even if you don't read the rest of it:
Source: Carolyn D'Agostino http://www.geocities.com/jbtocker/copyright/copyrfaq7.html

kellyh57
08-07-2007, 06:40 PM
So what about recipes. Can I make a cake using Hershey's recipe (my favorite) and sell it for a profit? Hershey's went to the trouble of writing the recipe and all that, but I'm using it as my base for the profit. Isn't it the same thing basically?

Kelly

Jan in CA
08-07-2007, 06:55 PM
So what about recipes. Can I make a cake using Hershey's recipe (my favorite) and sell it for a profit? Hershey's went to the trouble of writing the recipe and all that, but I'm using it as my base for the profit. Isn't it the same thing basically?

Kelly

You'd need to check the Hersheys site for that I think. This info only applies to knitting. :shrug:

redheadrachel
08-07-2007, 06:58 PM
I thought I was too stupid to come up with my own patterns too, but after hearing what Rebecca said to the last person who said that, maybe it would be safer for me to be confident, brave, and give it a try :)

Jan in CA
08-07-2007, 07:00 PM
I thought I was too stupid to come up with my own patterns too, but after hearing what Rebecca said to the last person who said that, maybe it would be safer for me to be confident, brave, and give it a try :)

:thumbsup:

Stiney
08-07-2007, 07:38 PM
I thought I was too stupid to come up with my own patterns too, but after hearing what Rebecca said to the last person who said that, maybe it would be safer for me to be confident, brave, and give it a try :)

After all, what's the worst that could happen? When it comes down to it, it's just string.

Jan in CA
08-07-2007, 10:10 PM
After all, what's the worst that could happen? When it comes down to it, it's just string.

Please remind me of this when I'm attempting to knit my own tank top pattern. :help:



:teehee:

momwolf
08-07-2007, 10:23 PM
So if I buy a book with a bunch of different patterns ( like 100 Knitting Projects) and knit them I can't sell those items?:noway:

redheadrachel
08-07-2007, 10:26 PM
So if I buy a book with a bunch of different patterns ( like 100 Knitting Projects) and knit them I can't sell those items?:noway:

That's correct. :doh:

momwolf
08-07-2007, 10:33 PM
Well that is just plain crazy. Why sell a book of patterns that people can't sell.After all we knitters need money to buy YARN,NEEDLES,MORE YARN,MORE NEEDLES:tap: After all aren't these people designers for knitting? Don't they already get a profit off every book they sell :eyes:

rebecca
08-07-2007, 10:51 PM
I thought I was too stupid to come up with my own patterns too, but after hearing what Rebecca said to the last person who said that, maybe it would be safer for me to be confident, brave, and give it a try :)

LOL, I didn't mean to sound harsh, I was fussing at ek for calling herself s _ _ _ _ _ because she ISN'T, she's a wonderfully intelligent girl! And, trust me, if I can play around with yarn and knitters graph paper and sketches and come up with something...so can YOU!!! GO FOR IT!
I will give you the best piece of advice that I got from the lady that was my test knitter in '05 when I had my socks published by knitpicks. I was so lucky, you see, she owned one of our yarn shops and had been in the knitting biz for 30+ years and had been published a # of times. She told me to sit down and read over patterns in Knit Simple, Vogue, Interweave Knits and study the way the patterns were put together because these publications' patterns were written in the knitting "norm" for patterns. And i did, I read patterns, not just those for socks, etc, but all kinds of patterns. And that helped me more than anything. Because I was okay with the design, had the socks ready, had previously "designed" (I still say "made it up") a few things but had never written a pattern because I was SCARED to death to try! After following her advice I can now write patterns much more easily with each pattern that i write.
Also, if you have questions...ASK! There is NO such thing as a dumb question! There's such a wealth of knitting knowledge around here that I don't think a question can be thought of that will go unanswered!...a knitting question that is :wink:

Zeeza
08-08-2007, 02:43 AM
My thoughts on this, You can buy the pattern(blueprints) to make a house. And you can sell your house for profit. Blueprints are copyrighted. I don't see the difference really, the designers should be proud to see their work on people they meet. Regardless of how they acquired it.

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 03:48 AM
Lisa Kay posed a vital question.

A transference issue into cooking. Not sure if you have it there but people here used to make a LOT of rice crackles for not only kids playlunches but for fetes and so on. They are made based on a cereal and you add copha and coconut and cocoa etc to it. Rice crackles have been around for probably 50 years or so. Anyway, all of a sudden, the manufacturer (Kelloggs??) basically said that people who made them for fetes etc were breaking copyright and little old ladies were basically threatened with law suits if they continued to make them for charity causes and school fund raising etc. RIDICULOUS!! The company sells product so what is the issue! I suspect it was *perhaps* (not sure) some folk were using other cheaper substitutes. Or perhaps the rice crackle had become so much of cookery folk lore it was bigger and more well understood than the maker was.

I think if you want an item for charity you almost need to ask the maker or designer to be a sponsor and the material aspect of their sponsorship is the pattern the item is made from.

At least these people are reasonably contactable. These days you could take WEEKS to get through a similar request process in a large company.

If I generated a business using someone's knitting pattern on which to base my product and they had a strict copyright policy I think I would offer them a small percentage of the sales as a trade off. Shame when it comes to a 'one of' item and a charity issue however some businesses and people are highly selective about the charities they support also.

ekgheiy
08-08-2007, 08:52 AM
I thought I was too stupid to come up with my own patterns too, but after hearing what Rebecca said to the last person who said that, maybe it would be safer for me to be confident, brave, and give it a try :)

Do let me know how that works out for you. :mrgreen:

ekgheiy
08-08-2007, 09:09 AM
My thoughts on this, You can buy the pattern(blueprints) to make a house. And you can sell your house for profit. Blueprints are copyrighted. I don't see the difference really, the designers should be proud to see their work on people they meet. Regardless of how they acquired it.
Thank you for the analogy.

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 09:26 AM
I thought I'd add this here albeit it is somewhat OT. THis young man has been arrested for translating the french version of HP and putting chapters on the web before the english release. The applicability here is that some people may think they can get away with translating a pattern and using it without fear. Apparently not.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22212576-23109,00.html

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 09:27 AM
Jan you're welcome to move that post over if you think it best.

iza
08-08-2007, 09:31 AM
House blueprints are also copyrighted. I think you're allowed to build only one house with one set of plans. I doubt you would be allowed to construct several houses and sell them for profit. :shrug:

ekgheiy
08-08-2007, 09:36 AM
I thought I'd add this here albeit it is somewhat OT. THis young man has been arrested for translating the french version of HP and putting chapters on the web before the english release. The applicability here is that some people may think they can get away with translating a pattern and using it without fear. Apparently not.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22212576-23109,00.html

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_4.gif

Eloewien
08-08-2007, 10:15 AM
I'm so torn on this... I understand designers need to pay the bills. However, it does get frustrating when I get asked to make something. Just a question... if someone purchases the yarn for a project... and then ask me to make it-- I feel that they are just providing the supplies and asking me to do the labor. I just often want to make things for friends, but can't afford the yarn... technically they are paying- but only because they are providing the supplies. Any thoughts on this?

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 10:25 AM
Because you are not garnering any profit as such, unless the copyright statement says "for personal use only" (or similar), you can make for a friend .The problem in some cases is someone making one, then three, then ten and so on. I recall someone here a while back saying they actually had half a dozen friends wanting the same item - this then becomes the issue of "where does the production stop?"

It *would* be interesting to know what the status would be IF you bought a second pattern or a pattern for each item made. This would then enable more of the same being produced and one could always say you were the sub-agent of the person who bought the pattern. I suspect legally that would be the way to go around the rules although one needs to know I am not a lawyer :)

My car was driven once by someone who did a task for me. She had an accident - she wasn't hurt but wrote off my car. When she did this she actually had decided to go off and do her own 'thing'. When she was driving within our arrangement of her doing things for me (I was very ill at the time) she was legally my 'agent' and thus I had to accept legal responsibility for any accident. When she choose to go off on her own that broke this legal standing.

So, if your friend bought a pattern and she asks you to 'help' her make it, you are acting within the purchase of the pattern I would think....

What do the lawyers amongst us believe? I actually would have no particular issue following this arrangement because it appears to satisfy everyone's issues.

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 10:29 AM
Oh..the former was of course within the frame of 'not for profit'.

There is a secondary technicality though on that matter. If a farmer used his tractor to plough my field for an hour and I paid him what it cost for the petrol or diesel he used and tyre wear and engine wear and oil, he could argue that he was receiving but "not for profit". He could say he was simply breaking even and would be 'not out of pocket'.

Could one argue similarly if spending 6 hours knitting someone for someone?

:)

redheadrachel
08-08-2007, 11:25 AM
My opinion is this: It doesn't really matter how else we apply it, we still have to follow the knitting rules...
It doesn't matter if you can build and sell a house from copyrighted blueprints that much, because if we understand laws surrounding the knitting pattern copyrights, we can't do it with knitting. If you read the link that explains the laws, though, it would be fairly simple to add a good amount of detailing/changes to the pattern to make it acceptable for you to sell.
Honestly, I wish I could sell stuff from someone's pattern. But I feel like I need to obey the laws, whether or not they make sense or I agree with them. :shrug:

Kaydee
08-08-2007, 11:44 AM
Would you be able to charge for your time/labor or does this still violate copyright laws?

Jan in CA
08-08-2007, 02:35 PM
:zombie: Holy cow. Well, you can debate all day long, but as Rachel basically says, the rules are the rules.

I posted this so you would know what those laws are regarding your knitting. Read through the entire thing. It's actually very readable and not full of of jargon you can't understand. Some of your questions are answered in it.

In the end it all comes down to "ask for permission" an then abide by the answer. That's all we can do unless you we want to create our own patterns.

kemp
08-08-2007, 03:07 PM
Here are two more useful links: http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/training/Hirtle_Public_Domain.htm when does something become public domain and http://www.intelproplaw.com/Forum/Forum.cgi?board=copyright forum specifically for intellectual property already has several knitting questions. Just type knitting into their search feature.

ishy
08-08-2007, 03:25 PM
OK, what about designs that are rather simple and something you come up with yourself, and someone else claims it is their pattern and threatens you about it?

I was working on something recently, and had not looked at anything else, and after wandering around found something completely identical. It was just a hat, with no complex pattern, but the person who had it on their site had all these copyright warnings that if you tried to sell that item or post the pattern she would contact your host, get legal help, etc. etc. This pattern anyone could have thought of, just a straight hat pattern with a common (public domain) symbol - a skull and crossbones.

It seems like there are a number of patterns that could be created by different people independently of each other, and one person could 'claim' a pattern is theirs when it's really not that original. But in the age of the internet, there's no real way to prove you didn't take that pattern off the 'net, and no real way to prove that you did. I did read that copyright site, but it didn't seem to go far enough on the idea of 'utilitarian' items.

redheadrachel
08-08-2007, 03:27 PM
OK, what about designs that are rather simple and something you come up with yourself, and someone else claims it is their pattern and threatens you about it?
I think it addresses that on the linked page about the legal issues, if you'll click on that. It explains it pretty well.

kemp
08-08-2007, 03:33 PM
From my reading, you do not own copyright on something like a basic hat. However, her written instructions are protected. If you were to write your own pattern though using a skull and crossbones type motif you should be ok.

Here is yet another link that might help: http://www.knitty.com/issuefall03/FEATcopyright.html

ishy
08-08-2007, 03:58 PM
Since the skull and crossbones (from the pirate flag) is a public domain graphic, I would not view that as copyrightable at all unless you made some major changes to it. But the basic design I would say is not copyrightable.

Jan in CA
08-08-2007, 04:17 PM
Since the skull and crossbones (from the pirate flag) is a public domain graphic, I would not view that as copyrightable at all unless you made some major changes to it. But the basic design I would say is not copyrightable.

I think the wording of the pattern and key instructions could be the issue. If your pattern has a different CO number or a different brim or decrease it would be your own. If you have the pattern word for word like hers there is no way of proving that you did it on your own. At least that is my understanding.

Stiney
08-08-2007, 04:31 PM
Since the skull and crossbones (from the pirate flag) is a public domain graphic, I would not view that as copyrightable at all unless you made some major changes to it. But the basic design I would say is not copyrightable.

Having a skull and crossbones graphic is allowed.

What is not allowed is going to someone else's skull and crossbone hat/scarf/whatever pattern, and taking the exact stitch instructions, is not.

You CAN go to a chart generator, or chart it out on graph paper yourself, and make your own pattern based on this information.

If you are using something like a cartoon character or a sports logo, the issue becomes foggy, because then you are dealing with trademarked logos, and the companies that hold the trademark can technically take issue with you using it at all, even if it's for personal use and not for sale. :eyes:

rebecca
08-08-2007, 04:46 PM
I agree, you can use knitters graph paper and create your own skull and crossbones. You can even knit the skull and crossbones in a different way, for example, you could use duplicate sts on them, or you could do a double knit hat, the st patterns on the hat other than the skull & crossbones can be entirely different from those she used (for example, if she use St st, you could use reverse St st, etc). The key is having an entirely different motif....IMHO and my bits of research.

knitpurlgurl
08-08-2007, 06:37 PM
A friend of mine (expert knitter) works for donations only - She never actually sells anything.

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 08:40 PM
Gosh.. I thought my posts were actually topical and reasonable. Rules are only rules in terms of interpretation.
My apologies if I became too heady.

ekgheiy
08-08-2007, 09:26 PM
Gosh.. I thought my posts were actually topical and reasonable. Rules are only rules in terms of interpretation.
My apologies if I became too heady.
:??:?? You're posts were too heavy (?) ? What'd I miss; what'd I miss?? :pout: I didn't see anything wrong/heavy/offensive about them.

Nichan
08-08-2007, 09:49 PM
I think the wording of the pattern and key instructions could be the issue. If your pattern has a different CO number or a different brim or decrease it would be your own. If you have the pattern word for word like hers there is no way of proving that you did it on your own. At least that is my understanding.

just wondering...so modification is allowed?...

i think the conclusion is ask the writer...:shrug:...especially when i know i got inspired by her/his work...
what i concern is sometimes we just don't have to see the 'master' pattern to make something...it's like we can figure out the pattern in our head, especially for common form.like skull hat or beani...

i one day found that there's a hat quite similar to my hat...while when i made that hat, i didn't see any pattern...i just tried to use my first circular needle and making hat with bobble and ribbing...decreasing...

so, it's like publish racing, isn't it?...who publish first, won the racing a.k.a patent/copyright!:woohoo:

this topic really help me to see deeper that it's really-really strict about knitting copyright/patent...it's like :wall:...
hyaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

i've never seen like this before in my country, really...i have a local crochet book...the writer didn't apply any :wall: rule about using the pattern...i don't think she cares...but to publish/copy the book without permission is illegal...so, seems like it's the book publishing that matters...not the material (crochet stuff)...

it's really an educating topic!:happydance:...because i'm planning to learn all knitting from western books, including making projects that are in the books...even may be not many people here will notice where the project comes from, but i want to make ethical business if i want to sell those projects...

but yes...my obsession in knitting is making my own design...:woot:...but the road to get there is stilll loooonnnggggg, lonnnngggggg...need to learn more and more...try many types of yarn...never give up in knitting! yes!:woohoo:

Jan in CA
08-08-2007, 09:52 PM
:??:?? You're posts were too heavy (?) ? What'd I miss; what'd I miss?? :pout: I didn't see anything wrong/heavy/offensive about them.

I don't know either. :shrug: This whole topic went well beyond what I intended, but I don't really care. I just wanted people to know that there is an issue and to be careful.

Susan P.
08-08-2007, 10:45 PM
Jan..from my perspective my posts embraced your intention. I was simply saying there are mechanisms to argue that doing a pattern for someone else is not breaking the rules as such. Get the other person to buy the pattern. And the issue of 'not for profit' is actually not that clearcut as I tried to explain through an analogy. I explored the issue because if someone here was accidentally caught out or held accountable by a pattern designer - and that person had honestly NOT set out to defraud but were innocent in intention e.g. making an item for a charity - they might have some mechanism to argue their case. You raised a really important issue and I simply explored it further.

Jan in CA
08-08-2007, 11:16 PM
Jan..from my perspective my posts embraced your intention. I was simply saying there are mechanisms to argue that doing a pattern for someone else is not breaking the rules as such. Get the other person to buy the pattern. And the issue of 'not for profit' is actually not that clearcut as I tried to explain through an analogy. I explored the issue because if someone here was accidentally caught out or held accountable by a pattern designer - and that person had honestly NOT set out to defraud but were innocent in intention e.g. making an item for a charity - they might have some mechanism to argue their case. You raised a really important issue and I simply explored it further.

That's fine! I didn't criticize you or anything did I? :shrug: