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auburnchick
08-16-2007, 08:55 AM
The title will make more sense after you read this (and it's all true!).

As if I didn't have enough stress as it is...

Here's the source of it:

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o76/forauburn/DSC02384.jpg

Well, my sweet (yeah, right) little Molly, recently adopted and named with y'all's help, has discovered the hole that our other sweet (sure, whatever) dog Pele dug a few months ago.

So, for the last two days, both dogs have just been having a grand ole time playing in the neighbor's yard behind me. BUT, they've always come back under the fence when I call.

Not this morning.

I put the shock collar on Pele after having ordered (last night) new batteries for the other collar, which will be used on Molly. I thought that if Pele was discouraged from going under, Molly would as well.

Guess what, the battery in Pele's collar is dead too -- a fact I would soon discover (much like the pee in front of my door this morning).

So I look outside and see only my oldest dog (good girl!) on the porch.

I call for the other two dogs. Pele comes out from under the fence, but there's no Molly, although I can hear her. It's 5:30am, and I'm calling her name, trying not to screech and wake the neighbors.

Grrrr...:grrr:

I go inside and grab some dog treats and hunker down (like I'm doing my business) by the hole, holding the treats under the fence, thinking Molly might see them and come running. No go. I don't even hear her at this point.

I briefly examine the hole to see if I can fit under but decide not to try it.

So then I start worrying that maybe she got out of their yard and is wandering around the neighborhood. I jump, barefoot and with night clothes on, into the Jeep and drive around the corner and park in front of my neighbor's house. No lights on at home.

Grrr...:grrr:

So, I look for the fence gate. Of course, I choose the wrong side of the house first. Going to the other side of the house, and looking like the PJ Bandit, I finding the gate, trying to be quiet, but of course I'm not. Egad...did I wake the sleeping bodies inside. Apparently not. But I do get in. Beautiful back yard. I've always wondered what it looked like. Too bad I'm seeing it in my pj's at 5:30 in the morning!

No dog. I see the porch door ajar. I creep up to the door and peek inside. No Molly.

Sigh...

I turn around, and there comes my Molly, hopping around through their flower bed...happy as can be.

Grrrr...:grrr:

I scoop her up, sneak back out of the yard, and quietly close the latch. We drive back home as quickly as possible.

The bad thing is that I can't punish her at this point because she would have no clue what she did wrong.

"Uh, hello, Pet Supply Store, can you please RUSH those danged batteries."

:teehee:

JessicaR
08-16-2007, 09:10 AM
AWWWW :roflhard:

marykz
08-16-2007, 09:32 AM
we had a "jailbreak" too yesterday! We have a large fenced in dog run (with a dog house, shade, water and food). We have 2 basset hounds. Usually very lazy. One is an escape artist, so we hook her to a large tie out in the pen. (she can go in the dog house and reach all corners, but can't dig out.) the other dog is too old and lazy to do anything. (so we thought.)

I walk out the front door to go pick up my daughter from day camp and there is the older one wandering in the (weird) neighbor's front yard!!! Ack!!!

She came right to me, happy as a clam. I run back into the back yard to see about the other one. She is still attached to the tie out, but she is yanking on the door of the pen with her teeth,a nd she has pulled it open. Good grief!!! I thought for sure she had hurt her mouth/teeth with that- but no.

I have no idea what got into her/ them. they were only out there for an hour or so to get a little fresh air while I was on a teleconference. Normally, they can spend the whole day out there happily! The only thing I can figure out is the neighbors up the street are having major construction done to the back of their house. We can see their construction from our back yard. Our silly dogs must have wanted to go play with the workmen.....

thank goodness they still had their collars on with their tags. Animal control is pretty fast in our neighborhood, and the one time the escape artist got out, she had wriggled out of her collar and was picked up within an hour.

glad you got everyone back!!!

auburnchick
08-16-2007, 09:38 AM
How funny!

I saw a video (I think it was AFV) where a dog, notorious for escaping the yard, climbed a tree, and climbed over a deer stand looking thing that had been erected as a deterrent, to get over the fence. It was truly amazing.

My problem is that Molly is so small that she can fit under the fence quite easily. Or maybe the problem is that the hole is too big. Pele is 55 pounds now, and although he struggles, he still gets through.

::::::::::::::::::::sigh:::::::::::::::::::::::

Sharly
08-16-2007, 09:56 AM
Oh, Nathalie - the mental image of you sneaking around the neighbor's house in your PJs is just too funny!:lol:

marykz
08-16-2007, 10:04 AM
LOL- too funny!

Is there a way to block the hole? we had to give up blocking holes with the escape artist- she just dug them again.... every so often we pack new dirt down in the hole and within a few days, she's dug it again.

When a dog is determined.... what can ya do? I'm glad the neighbors didn't find you in your pj's!

auburnchick
08-16-2007, 10:06 AM
We've tried blocking the holes, but the dogs manage to move whatever we use.

So, shock collar here we come. I wish I didn't have to, but it certainly stops my other dogs -- when the batteries work.

auburnchick
08-16-2007, 10:08 AM
Oh, Nathalie - the mental image of you sneaking around the neighbor's house in your PJs is just too funny!:lol:

At least the PJs are my cute ones...striped long pants from VS. So I was a stylish (minus the wild, unwashed, hair) bandit! Maybe I could give Paris Hilton some tips!

lissalue
08-16-2007, 10:30 AM
We used to have a dog that could climb our 8 foot wooden fence. The first time, the animal control lady took him wiht her, but called cause he had tags. THe second, she put him back, and he followed her right out. After that she would let him ride in the front seat of her truck and bring him home after my mom got home. After a few days, he started getting out and going to sit next to the road to wait on her.

I am glad that you found her, and that no one saw you (we hope) in you pjs. :teehee:

JessicaR
08-17-2007, 11:00 AM
Wow, maybe spending $2k on a fenced in dog run isn't a good idea...

Kaydee
08-17-2007, 11:16 AM
I can just picture you sneaking around in your pj's....that must have been a sight:roflhard:

I have to say though, that it must be a little hard to get angry at a puppy that's so darn cute!

JessicaR
08-17-2007, 11:23 AM
That's the only thing that saves our John. He has the cutest face and these heart melting eyes. He is SO NAUGHTY!!!

misha rf
08-17-2007, 11:26 AM
:roflhard::roflhard::chair:

That is a funny story!!

We had a dog when I was a kid who'd get out of her pen. She was a beagle. She'd climb the tree in the pen. She got knocked up, so dad moved the fence so the tree was outside the pen (I'm told homes were found for all the pups.) So then she started climbing the fence. Got knocked up again (this was the early 70's--spay & neuter wasn't a common thing yet). We kept that pup (only 1 in the litter), & dad installed electric fencing. So, then she'd roll the pup up against the fence to see if the current was turned on! Mother of the year she was not. Dad ended up selling her to a couple of hunters.

Luvmyrottnboy
08-17-2007, 01:33 PM
Oh my! That is hysterical! I know, believe me I know it wasn't funny at the time.

I have a 12 foot stockade fence and my boy doesn't dig BUT one time my mom left the gate open and Cyrus got out.

It was 4:00 AM and I never noticed the open gate...until a half hour later when I went out to get him in. My heart stopped. Like you, I was prowling the neighborhood in my PJ's. I was terrified! Cyrus is a Rottweiler and sometimes folks are funny about Rotts, he is a long coat and I am always paranoid about theft 'cause he is so unique looking. I was going to go back for my car when I had a brainstorm. There was a beautiful white cat that came to our yard to visit and play with Cyrus and the cat's owner was a sweet little girl who Cyrus adored. I walked to their house, called him and he bounded out of their yard.

Yes, I ALWAYS check the gate now!

Sharly
08-17-2007, 01:37 PM
I'm so glad Cyrus only wanted to play with the kitty!! What a sweet boy. :heart:

I love Rotties, however, our neighbor has one, Raven, and he is so mean. I really can't stand it because I want to hug him so bad, and I can't even go in the fence unless he is put up in the house.

They are an older couple, and he is good protection, but I just couldn't stand to have a dog like him.

Luvmyrottnboy
08-17-2007, 02:16 PM
I'm so glad Cyrus only wanted to play with the kitty!! What a sweet boy. :heart:

I love Rotties, however, our neighbor has one, Raven, and he is so mean. I really can't stand it because I want to hug him so bad, and I can't even go in the fence unless he is put up in the house.

They are an older couple, and he is good protection, but I just couldn't stand to have a dog like him.


I would NEVER allow my dog to decide who comes into my yard or into my house. That is is my decision not his.

Unfortunately a lot of folks think a dog like that is "good protection" but nothing could be further from the truth. Usually dogs like that are afraid for THEMSELVES, it is called fear aggression. They will react to anything, even if there is no threat. An accident waiting to happen.

Not to mention it gives many great, noble breeds a bad reputation.

Sharly
08-17-2007, 03:19 PM
Denise, I agree with you on all points! I guess Raven is really a deterrent more than protection.

Limey
08-17-2007, 05:56 PM
I think it's absolutely disgraceful using a shock collar on any dog, let alone a small puppy like that.

If you can't think of any other method to train your dogs other than by cruelty, i.e. by inflicting pain, you shouldn't have them.

Get yourself on a training course or at least, read a book on animal training and welfare.

If you lived in the UK, you'd be reported to the RSPCA.

auburnchick
08-17-2007, 09:36 PM
I think it's absolutely disgraceful using a shock collar on any dog, let alone a small puppy like that.

If you can't think of any other method to train your dogs other than by cruelty, i.e. by inflicting pain, you shouldn't have them.

Get yourself on a training course or at least, read a book on animal training and welfare.


Umm...wow. What can I say. I'm a bit surprised at this comment. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but before passing judgment on me, how about asking some questions first.

If you've ever read my posts here, you've seen how I question myself and my decisions. I care deeply for my pets (see this (http://www.knittinghelp.com/knitting/forum/showthread.php?t=62381&highlight=molly) thread).

I researched my options very carefully and asked advice here. This was something I ordered for my middle dog -- only after we tried many other methods of containment first.

And, not that I have to justify myself to you, but the product has different levels for adjustment, from only beeping to level five, for larger dogs. I have it set low, and it beeps first, warning the dogs. They're not dumb. They learn after the first time. It's actually a very humane way to keep your animals within the boundaries that you set. The inhumane thing to do would be to allow them to get out and either get hurt or make them someone else's responsibility.

I've adopted all three of my dogs from animal shelters. They are the happiest-go-lucky dogs you'll ever meet. They know that they are loved. When you have children, you set boundaries for them. Sometimes you erect barriers. It's painful, but we do it because we love them. The same thing goes for my animals. I've had dogs all of my life. I don't adopt them to mistreat them. I'm not a stupid pet owner. I buy magazines, do research on the internet, and ask many people advice if I'm not sure about something. I drill my vets with questions. If I didn't want to be a good pet owner, why would I go through such efforts?

I'm sure that you're still going to feel the way you do, but I felt like I had to defend myself.

KnittingNat
08-18-2007, 01:35 AM
Umm...wow. What can I say. I'm a bit surprised at this comment. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but before passing judgment on me, how about asking some questions first.

If you've ever read my posts here, you've seen how I question myself and my decisions. I care deeply for my pets (see this (http://www.knittinghelp.com/knitting/forum/showthread.php?t=62381&highlight=molly) thread).

I researched my options very carefully and asked advice here. This was something I ordered for my middle dog -- only after we tried many other methods of containment first.

And, not that I have to justify myself to you, but the product has different levels for adjustment, from only beeping to level five, for larger dogs. I have it set low, and it beeps first, warning the dogs. They're not dumb. They learn after the first time. It's actually a very humane way to keep your animals within the boundaries that you set. The inhumane thing to do would be to allow them to get out and either get hurt or make them someone else's responsibility.

I've adopted all three of my dogs from animal shelters. They are the happiest-go-lucky dogs you'll ever meet. They know that they are loved. When you have children, you set boundaries for them. Sometimes you erect barriers. It's painful, but we do it because we love them. The same thing goes for my animals. I've had dogs all of my life. I don't adopt them to mistreat them. I'm not a stupid pet owner. I buy magazines, do research on the internet, and ask many people advice if I'm not sure about something. I drill my vets with questions. If I didn't want to be a good pet owner, why would I go through such efforts?

I'm sure that you're still going to feel the way you do, but I felt like I had to defend myself.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: I'm with you, auburnchick. I think that maybe Limey has misunderstood the way the collar works and hence the reaction :shrug:.In Israel many mothers think that telling your children something is bad and they are not allowed to do it is bounding their freedom and ruining their childhood, that's why they grow up into what they are...

Limey
08-18-2007, 04:58 AM
Auburnchick

OK then, I'll ask you some questions:

Why was the puppy outdoors at night, in the first place?

If you knew your other dog was prone to digging a hole in a particular spot,why didn't you reinforce the area?

Why have you left a puppy in an unsecured garden?


I, too, have kept dogs all my life. At the front of my house is an extremely busy main road, half a block away is another busy road which leads on to the main one.

I have a 90ft garden, overlooking farmland at the back, where the farmer drives his 4 X 4, his tractors and this week, a combine harvester - so you can imagine that keeping my young dog secure in my garden is pretty high on my list of priorities.

I got Sam Pup when he was 12 weeks old, after he was found lost or just abandoned, wandering around busy streets on his own.

I can just imagine the reaction of the Labrador Rescue inspector, when she asked me if the garden was secure, if I'd said: 'Yes, but if he does start digging and can get out, I'll buy a shock collar. He'll soon learn ...'

Somehow, I don't think I'd have been allowed to adopt Sam.

The only safe way to keep a puppy in a garden is to supervise it and never leave it alone, especially when you think it might try to get out.

auburnchick
08-18-2007, 08:45 AM
Auburnchick

OK then, I'll ask you some questions:

Why was the puppy outdoors at night, in the first place?

If you knew your other dog was prone to digging a hole in a particular spot,why didn't you reinforce the area?

Why have you left a puppy in an unsecured garden?

Limey,

You need to re-read my post. It was morning. I was going to get ready for work and put the dogs out as I've done ever since I had them. The little one has always stayed in the yard. The hole was covered. I have a high fence with a gate that was secure. Dogs are smart and figure things out.

But you know what. I'm really not going to hash this out with you anymore. You are going to think what you want. I feel like you are personally attacking my choices. These choices are not bad choices, they are just not YOUR choices.

Somehow what was supposed to be a funny post turned into something not so funny.

Luvmyrottnboy
08-18-2007, 08:52 AM
I think you will find there are two schools of thought on shock collars and electric fences. Personally I wouldn't use either but if used correctly I don't think they are necessarily cruel. Many folks in the US use them successfully...and I am sure, like anything else, there are boneheads using them.

The reasons I won't use them are this: (no judgement here, just MY reasons!) I think there are better ways to train...a shock collar is kind of a "cop out", dogs can get immune to the shock and ignore it and in the case of electric fences, they MAY (when prey drive in full gear dogs can easily blast through 'em) keep you dog in but they definitely WON'T keep anyone OUT.

In this case my advice would be to pour some concrete or otherwise reinforce the fence and/or just stay outside with the pup.

auburnchick
08-18-2007, 09:26 AM
This collar does train them because it first begins to beep as they approach the final boundary. The dogs get trained very quickly to go back as soon as they hear that beep.

The term "shock collar," which I used and really shouldn't have, is very negative. It's a wireless pet containment system (yeah, yeah...symantecs aside). Shock collar implies that as soon as they put it on, they are shocked. Or that I'm sitting in the house with a remote control that I'm using to shock them. This is not the case

THEY (the dogs) make the choice to leave the boundaries, and they are given an audible warning when they make this choice, with the beeps increasing in frequency with the duration of their stay in that area.

Trust me...the dogs KNOW they have to back up.

I've had this product for a few months now, and it is so much better than tying up my dogs outside. They still have plenty of room to run around and frolic with one another, unlike what a run or a lead would do.

Susan P.
08-18-2007, 09:50 AM
[quote=auburnchick;937625]Limey,

The little one has always stayed in the yard.

Did I quote correctly? I never seem to get this right.

Actually, you began your thread by saying the two dogs had played in a neighbour's yard for two days and came when called. Your neighbour must be a kind hearted soul.
I suspect this was a sign that the hole needed greater reinforcement. That doesn't mean filling in the hole. It means reinforcing it.

I know the retreat line on this threads is to say things were meant to be funny. I understand that. I hope you can also understand why an individual might not find some issues funny.

It's me who usually gets jumped on for not sharing a laugh and yet I think I display a pretty good sense of humour most of the time.

Shock collars on animals are actually illegal in parts of Australia and I respect and understand Limey's view on this because even the UK parliament has spoken out against their use. I suspect they are used as an easy replacement for busy people who don't have the time to train their dogs or to take them to training classes. This is one reason I don't have a dog, because I can't devote the time.

I respect what Limey said. Please try and accept that some of us are devoted to animal welfare (even if we currently don't own an animal) and can't, responsibly, find certain things funny. This is part and parcel of having a multi-cultural world and learning from others. Obviously there are different perspectives on animal welfare and what constitutes responsible ownership. I don't have any answers for how to soften a point of view on these matters. Should we not comment? Should posters begin to lay down rules? I hope the latter does not become a trend.

Luvmyrottnboy
08-18-2007, 09:52 AM
This collar does train them because it first begins to beep as they approach the final boundary. The dogs get trained very quickly to go back as soon as they hear that beep.

The term "shock collar," which I used and really shouldn't have, is very negative. It's a wireless pet containment system (yeah, yeah...symantecs aside). Shock collar implies that as soon as they put it on, they are shocked. Or that I'm sitting in the house with a remote control that I'm using to shock them. This is not the case

THEY (the dogs) make the choice to leave the boundaries, and they are given an audible warning when they make this choice, with the beeps increasing in frequency with the duration of their stay in that area.

Trust me...the dogs KNOW they have to back up.

I've had this product for a few months now, and it is so much better than tying up my dogs outside. They still have plenty of room to run around and frolic with one another, unlike what a run or a lead would do.



Yes, these collars are very misunderstood. Tying dogs up is a very bad idea...good way to make them aggressisve. Given the choice it would be electronic collar!

I have no issues with someone like you using the collar because it is evident you know what you are doing.

I have a big, powerful dog with an undeserved reputation so my ideas on training are going to be different than someone who has a JRT or beagle!

ETA: No matter how well trained a dog is, there is no such thing as a "perfect" recall. This is especially true if a dog is born with a high prey drive. Anyone who lets a dog loose in a less than secure location take a big risk.

Susan P.
08-18-2007, 10:06 AM
All I can say is that I don't understand why a collar is required if a yard is fenced and dogs are trained and all holes are properly reinforced. And of course now the points Limey and I stated seemed moot if we're not talking about a shock collar at all.

People really empathised with Jan when she spoke about being scared when walking her little dog and a dog ran at them. Why was it considered funny that this dog was perhaps running around the street? Because it looks cute? I've seen friendly dogs come close to knocking an elderly person with a walking stick over - not because they are attacking, but because they are loose on the street and over exuberant.

And if a collar was available why wasn't it being used? Never mind, a rhetorical question.

Nothing replaces personal training or training classes *in my opinion*.

Have a nice weekend folks.

auburnchick
08-18-2007, 10:44 AM
Goodness! The funny part of the story was the retrieval of the dog. Y'all have managed to pull out one thing and totally turn it on me. I don't find disciplining a dog funny. It's work. And I am doing that work in many areas of my dog training (teaching them not to jump on people, housetraining, etc.). The collar is one tool in the yard training.

I have two collars. One collar's battery wasn't working, so I could not use it immediately on the little one. The other collar was working, so I thought if I put it on the older dog, and if he didn't go under the fence, the younger one would follow suit. The other collar apparently had a dead battery too. But the night before I found out, I had ordered new batteries (which arrived last night...two days!).

As you can see, I was trying. I had blocked the hole, and the dogs had not disturbed anything. Well, until the day before. Yes, maybe I could have filled it in better. Forgive me for being too "lazy" to do so. You do not know the things that go on in my life. I was probably exhausted from work (it was a tough week, even though I'm only part-time), school (four classes), parenting, and other stuff. I'm human and therefore not perfect.

By the way, my neighbors are very understanding and not judgmental. I've gone by, apologized, taken cookies, and we've all had a good laugh.

Once again, and I should have learned my lesson way before this, I must be careful what I post. Even the most innocent post is liable to draw criticism. That makes me very sad.

Limey
08-18-2007, 10:53 AM
Auburnchick

First off, the dogs were in your neighbour's garden, so the garden isn't secure.

Second, you say that the 'bad thing' was you couldn't 'punish' Molly, as it was too late. Who's fault was it that Molly was unsupervised?

Third, yes I do believe your choices are wrong and I'm not the only one - take a look here:
http://www.goodnewsforpets.com/Articles.asp?ID=147

Fourth, I'm sure your dogs KNOW when to back off - I think I'd back off too, if I was going to get an electric shock (no matter how mild).

The RSPCA has campaigned successfully here to get the Police to stop using these horrible devices - ask yourself, if they're too cruel to use on a fully-grown German Shepherd, what the hell risk are you running using them on an immature puppy?

Let's just hope your vet is good at treating burns.

For goodness sake, go to the hardware store and get that garden properly secured - I'm more interested in the welfare of your puppy than arguing the toss.

I really wish you'd bin those collars.

Luvmyrottnboy
08-18-2007, 10:54 AM
Goodness! The funny part of the story was the retrieval of the dog. Y'all have managed to pull out one thing and totally turn it on me. I don't find disciplining a dog funny. It's work. And I am doing that work in many areas of my dog training (teaching them not to jump on people, housetraining, etc.). The collar is one tool in the yard training.

I have two collars. One collar's battery wasn't working, so I could not use it immediately on the little one. The other collar was working, so I thought if I put it on the older dog, and if he didn't go under the fence, the younger one would follow suit. The other collar apparently had a dead battery too. But the night before I found out, I had ordered new batteries (which arrived last night...two days!).

As you can see, I was trying. I had blocked the hole, and the dogs had not disturbed anything. Oh, and the next door neighbors behind me are very nice and non-judgmental.

Once again, and I should have learned my lesson way before this, I must be careful what I post. Even the most innocent post is liable to draw criticism. That makes me very sad.




Aw don't feel bad! To be honest, my very first thought was "hey, what's up with that?" but it can happen to best of us...I sure as heck NEVER thought it would happen to me! Twelve foot privacy fence, padlocked gate, etc. I just didn't take into account my mom who was in the first stages of Alzheimers leaving the gate open!

Yes, I am all for training, and like I said, I probably do much stricter and formal training than most folks but dogs are opportunists! And many are escape artists of the first degree!

Heck! I know a woman whose pitbull escaped the house by destroying her A/C! You can't flame a person who left her dog at home in a nice air conditioned environment, can you?:cheering:

auburnchick
08-18-2007, 11:00 AM
Limey,

You win. I'm not going to argue with you any more. I've said enough to defend myself properly.

iza
08-18-2007, 11:32 AM
Well... let's go back to the original subject of the post. You have a very cute little dog and your story is funny. :)

It reminds me of something that happened to me with my parents' dog. I don't remember what happened but she got out of the house (sometimes, accidents DO happen... anyways). She was about 1 year old at the time. I was in my pajamas, and couldn't find my boots (it was in the middle of winter, of course). So I took the first pair I could find... my brothers' (who wears size 12 shoes). :shock: I ran out of the house, calling the dog. My dad came to help. She was just running between me and him, having a blast. I bet you the neighbors were having a blast too. :teehee: Finally she ran towards my dad, he moved to try to catch her. And suddenly... BOOM! Collision between a 70 pound Bernese mountain dog running at full speed and a 200 pound man. The dog fell on one side, my dad on the other. She got back on her feet in no time, wagging her tail, as happy as a clam. My dad took a bit more time but he was ok. :rofl: He managed to grab the dog and we came back home.

Funny how it goes, this dog is now 8 years old, 90 pounds and is the most boring dog ever! :teehee: So there's hope for your little mischievous puppy!

Limey
08-18-2007, 12:05 PM
Hi Iza

Yes, dogs and pups can be especially daft and funny and cute - that's why we like them so much.

The thought of someone careering round the neighbourhood at 5.30 am trying to catch their puppy does have it's funny side to the story .... but please, aren't there better punchlines than that puppy's going to get an electric shock next time she makes a break for it out of the garden?

JessicaR
08-18-2007, 12:40 PM
Auburn... Didn't we start out having a disagreement like this? ;)

Sharly
08-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Oh! I love Burnese Mountain Dogs!!

And WAR EAGLE ;););)

auburnchick
08-18-2007, 11:44 PM
Jessica, you are so right! Just look at us now!

And Sharly, War Eagle to ya! Football season is right around the corner!!!!

Sharly
08-19-2007, 08:24 AM
You are so right! I'm looking forward to college football and cooler weather!!

I got the cutest tote bag at Bath & Body yesterday that is blue and orange! It would make a pretty good knitting bag, too!!

Thake care!!

momwolf
08-20-2007, 04:04 PM
Boy oh boy don't know if I want to get into this discussion
but here goes:wall:
I have 2 shock collars.I think they are a great tool in training IF used properly. By that I mean training your dog to listen for the BEEP first.Most dogs will think what the hell is that?And stop doing what they were doing and then you reward them with Praise.My dogs started chasing deer.In the US dogs are shot on sight for that.At first they just chased them out of the yard,but after awhile they turned it into a game and going in the woods.So I got the shock collars for that reason.When I got them I used it on me first.:noway:( shocked my hand.)But found out that levels 1 & 2 are not bad at all.Haven't tried other levels because had no need to.I first would beep them and then if that didn't work I hit level 1.They stopped dead in their tracks and just stood there.Again what the hell was that?It doesn't hurt them ( I know when something hurts my dogs)but they don't like it.So when they would go after deer I would yell wait(which to them is to stop dead in their tracks which they already knew from my training them)if that didn't stop them I would beep them if that didn't work then I would shock them on level one if that didn't work I would bump it up to 2 and that ALWAYS did it.So got to the point that all I would have to do is yell wait and if they didn't stop I would just have to BEEP them. Now all I have to do is yell wait.Worked like a charm.Needless to say my collars are put away now. I don't have to worry about my 2 Labs getting shot for chasing deer. Don't get me wrong this took a lot of work on MY part.To watch to see when the deer would come in the yard and if the dogs would feel like chasing them that day:teehee:.

So that is my opinion on shock dog collars like it or not.
They are a GOOD training when used by someone who knows how to use them.And of course it's like anything else it can be abused.I have seen regular dog collars embedded in dogs necks that had to be remove surgically because they are tied up and just left there day in and day out.It was a St.Bernard the most gentle dog you could ever want.But wouldn't stay in the yard so the owners just left her tied up.
Anyway spay and neuter your pets and we won't have so many dogs that aren't wanted because people are to lazy to train them.
Limey don't hate me :waah:

momwolf
08-20-2007, 04:20 PM
Forgot to add that I would NEVER use the shock part of this collar on a puppy.I would use the BEEP though.

auburnchick
08-20-2007, 11:05 PM
All I can say is that Molly responds to the beep now. She is learning that she has limits, yet she is still happy as can be.

Limey
08-21-2007, 10:45 AM
Hi Julie

After reading your post, I have to admit that I just don't understand the American mentality of administering an electric shock to an animal, rather than build a boundary fence.

I do not agree with you when you claim you 'know' when your dogs are hurt. You cannot possibly 'know' this because a dog's instinct is not to show signs if injury, as it is taken as a sign of weakness to the other members of the pack - and can spell trouble when food is scarce.

What would you have done if the dogs had not responded to the level 1 shock? - Keep on increasing it until they did? How far were you prepared to go?

The link here http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/electricshockcollars.pdf

gives the pros and cons of shock collars.

Page 9 has a photograph of neck injuries sustained by a PUPPY and there are photos of the prongs that touch animals' necks to administer a shock.

I don't really think I need say any more.

Ellie

Luvmyrottnboy
08-21-2007, 11:06 AM
Hi Julie

After reading your post, I have to admit that I just don't understand the American mentality of administering an electric shock to an animal, rather than build a boundary fence.

I do not agree with you when you claim you 'know' when your dogs are hurt. You cannot possibly 'know' this because a dog's instinct is not to show signs if injury, as it is taken as a sign of weakness to the other members of the pack - and can spell trouble when food is scarce.

What would you have done if the dogs had not responded to the level 1 shock? - Keep on increasing it until they did? How far were you prepared to go?

The link here http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/electricshockcollars.pdf

gives the pros and cons of shock collars.

Page 9 has a photograph of neck injuries sustained by a PUPPY and there are photos of the prongs that touch animals' necks to administer a shock.

I don't really think I need say any more.

Ellie


ANY training device, whether a prong, choke, halti, or e-collar has the potential to harm when used inappropriately. heck, a regular old collar can be abused.

A reasonable person certainly would not shock their own dog to the degree shown in those photos. And that is what we are talking about here: Reasonable people who love their pets but need help training.

Unfortunately there are dogs, for whatever reason (bad breeding, previous abuse, etc), who are very difficult to train. Some are incessant barkers and the only thing that stands between them and the needle is a "beep".

Agan, I would say: It is vitally important to know how to use e-collars correctly and to work with a trainer experienced with them.

Limey
08-21-2007, 11:51 AM
Hi Denise

Many thanks for your reply - of course, alot of animal training tack can be used abusively.

I still think it totally reprehensible and unnecessary to inflict an electric shock to an animal. It is just not necessary - Momwolf and Auburnchick have used these collars to prevent their pets from committing the heinous crime of getting out of the 'yard'.

As for for the case of the non-stop barker, there is an alternative to putting the dog down - take it to a shelter, where it will have a chance to be placed with owners who can give it the time and attention to address the behaviour problem; otherwise, you're saying - shock the dog or kill it.

momwolf
08-21-2007, 11:56 AM
I know what the shock feels like and it is just like a vibration not like a electrical shock when used on LOW and Limey I would of had to of tied my dogs up and to a dog that is worse then a 1 second beep or low grade shock

Limey
08-21-2007, 12:08 PM
Hi Julie

There's a big difference in applying the shock to your WRIST and putting it next to a dog's jugular vein.

You didn't have it round your neck and I take it that you weren't standing in the rain at the time.

All these replies sound to me (except for Denise) that shock collars are used as poor excuses - it's a quick fix, instead of investing money in fencing.

Anyone who takes ownership of a dog should take the responsibility to keep that dog safe in its own 'run' area. It's the least you do.

momwolf
08-21-2007, 12:14 PM
Limey my dogs were chasing deer. That is the only time I used the collars and it worked so now I can let them run and play on 1 acre of land rather then being fenced in or tied up.I think the low shock was more humane then fencing or to tie them up

Luvmyrottnboy
08-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Hi Denise

Many thanks for your reply - of course, alot of animal training tack can be used abusively.

I still think it totally reprehensible and unnecessary to inflict an electric shock to an animal. It is just not necessary - Momwolf and Auburnchick have used these collars to prevent their pets from committing the heinous crime of getting out of the 'yard'.

As for for the case of the non-stop barker, there is an alternative to putting the dog down - take it to a shelter, where it will have a chance to be placed with owners who can give it the time and attention to address the behaviour problem; otherwise, you're saying - shock the dog or kill it.


I don't think an e-collar is ideal...I think it should be a last resort. But I also don't think, if used properly, they are as evil as they are made out to be. I know lots of dogs that have benefitted from e-training who are healthy, happy and haven't a mark on them.

No, I don't mean "shock it or kill it"....this is the scenario: Your dog is obsessive compulsive, he barks constantly. You have received warnings and fines from animal control and you are at a point where your dog has been deemed a disturbance to the community and he must stop barking, be re-homed or worse.

Well, where you gonna rehome a dog that is an incessant barker? It's not like there is a line of folks from the rural areas in line waiting to adopt your dog!

So, you call a trainer proficient in e-collar training. E-collar training often works when conventional methods fail.

I don't know about the UK but here in the states unethical breeding is out of control. Dogs are being bred indiscriminately resulting not only only in health problems but temperament problem also making training difficult.

I agree with you 100% that a fence is always a better solution, and I am lucky my dog stays behind the fence. But another dog may be able to jump a 12 foot fence or dig under, or destroy the slats. Some dogs can be utterly relentless escape artists.

Some folks can't build a higher fence or pour concrete because there is a Homeowners Association that forbids it.

I guess we can all agree to disagree :)

iza
08-21-2007, 12:32 PM
I can see your point of view Limey. I am not really comfortable with shock collars, but I've never seen one, never used one so I don't think it's appropriate for me to judge a person who knows more about it than I do. There are many types of owners and many types of collars as well. I don't think it's fair to put all owners and collars in the same boat.

Perhaps there is a culture difference between Europe and the US on how to treat dogs. I think there's also a difference on how people perceive land property. But really I don't think you will change the American way of life just by yourself, and just by posting in this thread! :teehee:
:hug:

momwolf
08-21-2007, 12:33 PM
Limey,
Shock collars serve a purpose in training and when used PROPERLY can mean the difference between keeping your dog or having it put down.Not everyone should use a shock collar.I for one at least used it on myself before using it on my dogs.My wrist is just as sensitive as there neck if not more so because they have fur and muscle on their necks.
I'm not a shock collar advocate but they worked for me and my dogs are happy and healthy.And I rescued both from being put to sleep.

momwolf
08-21-2007, 12:38 PM
I don't think an e-collar is ideal...I think it should be a last resort. But I also don't think, if used properly, they are as evil as they are made out to be. I know lots of dogs that have benefitted from e-training who are healthy, happy and haven't a mark on them.

No, I don't mean "shock it or kill it"....this is the scenario: Your dog is obsessive compulsive, he barks constantly. You have received warnings and fines from animal control and you are at a point where your dog has been deemed a disturbance to the community and he must stop barking, be re-homed or worse.

Well, where you gonna rehome a dog that is an incessant barker? It's not like there is a line of folks from the rural areas in line waiting to adopt your dog!

So, you call a trainer proficient in e-collar training. E-collar training often works when conventional methods fail.

I don't know about the UK but here in the states unethical breeding is out of control. Dogs are being bred indiscriminately resulting not only only in health problems but temperament problem also making training difficult.

I agree with you 100% that a fence is always a better solution, and I am lucky my dog stays behind the fence. But another dog may be able to jump a 12 foot fence or dig under, or destroy the slats. Some dogs can be utterly relentless escape artists.

Some folks can't build a higher fence or pour concrete because there is a Homeowners Association that forbids it.

I guess we can all agree to disagree

This is so true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Limey
08-21-2007, 01:25 PM
Hi Denise

When you say that e-collars work where conventional methods fail, I'm afraid these people just don't agree with you (The Association of Pet Bahaviour Counsellors)

http://www.apbc.org.uk/article2.htm

If people know they are restricted in the kinds of fences they can build, then in makes no sense to have a breed of dog which can jump or is bred to dig, like a terrier.

Julie
I do understand Julie that you at least did try it on yourself - however, I still feel that you should have built a secure area in your garden for the dogs - you've enough space - what on earth are you thinking of though, having deer wander close up to your house when you've got two labs? It's just asking for trouble.

Iza - You're right - there are differences between the US and the UK but I've yet to come across anyone concerned with animal welfare who advocates the use of these horrible things - American welfare organisations certainly don't.

If the British Military, the Police, Search and Rescue, Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and all the major animal charities in the UK condemn their use - then they're doing it for a reason.

It's not a question of whether to agree to disagree, it's a question of who to trust - and I tend to trust people who put their money where their mouths are - I'd trust a police dog handler who's dog sniffs out explosives, rather than someone who thinks it's okay to give an electric shock to a puppy, just because it gets under the fence.

stitchwitch
08-21-2007, 01:29 PM
Geez ya'll let it die. People have different viewpoints accept it and move on. :shrug: Beating a dead horse isn't going to change most people's minds, it just serves to cause a fight.

momwolf
08-21-2007, 01:32 PM
Limey
How am I suppose to keep wild deer out of my yard?They don't care if you have dogs.I have had even a bear, moose, beaver, eagles owls hawks and bunnies in my yard.Am I suppose to fence in and out the whole world? Come on Limey I live live in the woods.

Limey
08-21-2007, 01:35 PM
Hi Stitchwitch

Look, I'm sorry if this dog post is becoming a pain in the proverbial - it is however, a very emotive issue which people feel strongly about and it is an Off Topic thread.

I let the whole subject drop at the weekend but people have written since, expressing their views and I think it's only fair to have the right of reply.

All the Best - sorry again if it's causing you grief!

momwolf
08-21-2007, 01:37 PM
ya leave us alone in our misery.You tell her Limey:roflhard:

stitchwitch
08-21-2007, 01:38 PM
No problem. Carry on with your bickering.

cftwo
08-21-2007, 02:31 PM
what on earth are you thinking of though, having deer wander close up to your house

I have to admit this comment made me laugh. I'm not a dog owner (and only like some dogs), so I won't comment on the topic at hand. I will say that there are places in the US where there are so many deer that stopping them from going wherever they want to go is pretty much impossible. I live in one of the states with the highest rate of deer-caused traffic accidents. We quickly learn to watch for and respect deer because they'll do whatever they want to do and go wherever they want to go - fence or no fence. And when it's deer against car - neither wins. Mating season around here can be dangerous.

Limey
08-21-2007, 03:51 PM
I have to admit this comment made me laugh. I'm not a dog owner (and only like some dogs), so I won't comment on the topic at hand. I will say that there are places in the US where there are so many deer that stopping them from going wherever they want to go is pretty much impossible. I live in one of the states with the highest rate of deer-caused traffic accidents. We quickly learn to watch for and respect deer because they'll do whatever they want to do and go wherever they want to go - fence or no fence. And when it's deer against car - neither wins. Mating season around here can be dangerous.

Oh Deer Deer!!! - glad you told me that one

I must tell my mates where I lived in Southern Africa to stop wasting their time erecting fences to keep out the Gemsbok and the occasional Springbok strolling by. Can't imagine why they spend so much money then, protecting their houses and gardens from local wildlife.

I wonder too why they have fences all around the national parks when they won't keep any animal in - all a bit futile really.

auburnchick
08-21-2007, 04:20 PM
It's not a question of whether to agree to disagree, it's a question of who to trust - and I tend to trust people who put their money where their mouths are - I'd trust a police dog handler who's dog sniffs out explosives, rather than someone who thinks it's okay to give an electric shock to a puppy, just because it gets under the fence.

Limey,

My husband is a law enforcement officer. Some of his best friends are dog handlers. I trust my husband.

The collar has also stopped my precious dear from running into the road in front of my house. It's not a punishment. It is a method of protection.

I can understand that you feel passionate about this issue. When we feel passionately about issues, we can get blinded to how we come across when trying to make our point. I think that this one has been beat (maybe shocked) to death.

I do believe that the members of this board are compassionate people. Who else would knit for the simple pleasure of giving to others? Many people on this board knit blankets for animal shelters. If some of those people choose to use wireless pet containment systems, oh well. That doesn't change who they are.

I love the people on this board. God has expanded my family to include all of you. We can disagree, but it doesn't stop us from being a "family." Just please don't judge me or any of us. Some of us can't help our circumstances (wild animals coming to our door), and some of us make different choices from others.

momwolf
08-21-2007, 04:47 PM
Limey if you think I'm gonna fence in 40 acres 10 feet high (do they make fence that high) it would cost me a fortune.
I'm done on this subject.Limey I'm sorry this has broken our friendship up but I'm just as passionate about keeping my animals safe and in control as a good dog owner should be.And if that means a shock collar well then I guess there isn't much more for us to say.But at least I have control over my dogs when the grandkids come over and don't have to lock them up in another room.I'm done here as once again we dog people are soooooooooooo passionate over our dogs.Spay and neuter your pets please :muah:Now on to better topics like the Swappers :woohoo:

Limey
08-21-2007, 04:57 PM
Hi Auburnchick

I'm not bothered if your husband is President of the United States and his workmates are members of Congress, inflicting pain and discomfort on an animal, especially one as young as Molly, is just plain wrong.

'Wireless Pet Containment System' might be the sales pitch but the reality is it's a shock collar

And also, when you reply, I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring in the supernatural - it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Is it asking too much of you to enclose your garden properly? - Molly hasn't had the easiest start in life - winding up in a shelter, fleabites and having to have anti-biotics.

No matter which way you slice it, keeping Molly safely inside your garden in a humane way is what matters - she can live without any more pain or discomfort - if she's kept safe and supervised, there is absolutely no need to use these collars.

She's only a puppy and if I'm not mistaken, is partly a Jack Russell/terrier breed and therefore, prone to dig. I'm sure it's not beyond your wit to supervise Molly - if you're too busy at certain times to watch her in the yard, then bring her in where you can keep an eye on her.

As for beating this subject to death, as I explained to Stitchwitch, I let the matter go at the weekend but people came swinging in again today - I'm not responsible for them replying - what am I supposed to do, concede that shock collars are okay?

If I'm 'blinded' on this subject, then I'm in good company, - with animal welfare organisations in the UK and most reputable animal charities in the US and Australia believing that the use of these devices is both cruel and unnecessary.

iza
08-21-2007, 05:02 PM
Any mod around? :shrug: I think it's going out of control.:shock:

Jan in CA
08-21-2007, 05:37 PM
Time to calm down here and realize we all have different opinions about things. No amount of arguing and pointing fingers is going to change that so let's let it go please. If we can't do that then I'll have to lock this thread.

:hug:

Tuesday 2:37pm PST