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msoebel
10-29-2007, 11:20 AM
It makes me sick. At the mall on Saturday, some 9 year old little girls were dressed very provocatively...they were in costume for trick or treating.

Apparently, a girl can no longer go as a nurse or a police woman or nursery rhyme character.

One has no option but to be a "naughty nurse" or a "naughty police woman" or a "naughty goldilocks".:ick:

These girls...who were young enough not to need, ahem, supportive undergarments, were wearing what amounted to lingerie with their dark makeup and heels. One girl was dressed as a "naughty pirate"...mini dress, fishnet stockings, heels and an eye patch. Her friend was an army girl...although how she was going to go into comabat in her mini dress, high heeled boots and fishnets, I just don't know. There were about 6 in the group...all dressed in the same fashion.

Then...I saw pictures of girls from our church youth group...dressed as naughty characters for the monster bash at school. YUCK. If I wanted to see their bottoms...well, I don't ever want to see their bottoms:wink: .

Where are the PARENTS? My 4 year old isn't even allowed to wear a two piece bathing suit because "daddy's girls don't show their bellies". I know these parents...they are basically good, loving, involved parents. Why on earth would they let their teen daughters dress up in lingerie to go to a dance where there will be HORMONAL teen boys? I work with teen boys...I know EXACTLY what is going on in their little brains.

I think I am going to put on my sweats, grab a bag of reese's peanut butter cups and hide my head until halloween is over this year.

marykz
10-29-2007, 11:24 AM
I totally agree with you!!! For some reason, in all the halloween catalogs, costumes for any girl older than 5 is "naughty". I've seen those exact costume you are describing in the catalogs. I'm not sure how these girls convinced their parents to buy them?!! my girl will be wonder woman- but the costume with a SKIRT, no pretend cleavage, and long sleeves. (she is only 5 so I could find something cute!)

beckyrhae
10-29-2007, 11:26 AM
I agree with you ... its amazing that people think its ok on Halloween. Although this past weekend I was out to dinner and a couple came in with their little girl, I'm going to say in the 7-9 year range, she was all dressed up, very cute shirt, pants, pearls and HIGH HEELS! I was shocked, she could walk in them pretty good too ... which means this is a common practice for her. I was floored.

I really thought people had better sense than that. I mean... she was such a pretty LITTLE girl, why rush into grown up clothes??

vaknitter
10-29-2007, 11:33 AM
I'm not a parent, but couldn't agree more. I was always a clown, a baby, karate kid, little red riding hood, goldilocks or something along those lines.
Problem is the dress code in general is getting more and more skanky for young girls. Working in the chidren's hosp I am always amazed by the cleavage showing shirts, and ultra low rise jeans that leave nothing to the imagination - belly's and thongs hang out for all the world to see. I particularly love when parents say something like "they made me buy that - I really don't approve." HELLLLOOO how does a child MAKE you do anything.
I came home with a second piercing in my ear and a bikini while in college and my father handed me a t-shirt and a lecture.

knitgal
10-29-2007, 11:34 AM
This is a conversation I have had with several people over the last week or so, although it involved women in their twenties. I have found more and more young women buying their costumes at stag shops (NOT KIDDING!). Now, if I wanted to buy something cute to wear IN THE BEDROOM for my BF, then I would go there, but the intention of these outfits is to wear them during private time, not out in public. This is just another symptom of what is wrong with society. I don't understand why people think it is okay to dress like this. Halloween has become "dress up slutty" day for women, and I think it's wrong. It's completely unfeminist and sexist and it's making women out to be sex objects. Haven't women been fighting for years to be seen as equals? What for? Clearly there are women who don't want to be. This really makes me angry, and now hearing that young girls are on to the trend too... I just don't know what to think. I guess some people write it off as being fun and once a year, well I don't think that's true. It's just a demonstration of what we're teaching the new generations. I'm only 21, but I think that this is true of many women my age, as well as younger and older. I think this generation has no idea what it's like to not be equal to men and instead of rejoicing in our equality, we're wallowing in sluttiness. I think there needs to be a revolution. I don't want any daughter of mine growing up in a world where it's okay to treat women that way.

msoebel
10-29-2007, 11:43 AM
This is a conversation I have had with several people over the last week or so, although it involved women in their twenties. I have found more and more young women buying their costumes at stag shops (NOT KIDDING!). Now, if I wanted to buy something cute to wear IN THE BEDROOM for my BF, then I would go there, but the intention of these outfits is to wear them during private time, not out in public. This is just another symptom of what is wrong with society. I don't understand why people think it is okay to dress like this. Halloween has become "dress up slutty" day for women, and I think it's wrong. It's completely unfeminist and sexist and it's making women out to be sex objects. Haven't women been fighting for years to be seen as equals? What for? Clearly there are women who don't want to be. This really makes me angry, and now hearing that young girls are on to the trend too... I just don't know what to think. I guess some people write it off as being fun and once a year, well I don't think that's true. It's just a demonstration of what we're teaching the new generations. I'm only 21, but I think that this is true of many women my age, as well as younger and older. I think this generation has no idea what it's like to not be equal to men and instead of rejoicing in our equality, we're wallowing in sluttiness. I think there needs to be a revolution. I don't want any daughter of mine growing up in a world where it's okay to treat women that way.

I couldn't agree with you more. I am tired of hearing intelligent (and okay, not so intelligent women) say that they are just "owning their sexuality". No...they are giving it away to any guy who is going to use it later during his own "private" time. And while I am sure they aren't too upset about the idea of the cute young guy next door fantasizing about them...I wonder how they would feel about the old, morbidly obese guy who smells weird and stood behind them in the line at the grocery store?

Whatever happened to a little mystery?

As for the little girls in the skanky outfits...I can't help thinking that pedophiles must LOVE this time of year.:twisted:

Abbily
10-29-2007, 11:49 AM
I agree completely. I have to say, though, that it has gone way beyond halloween... I was looking for Christmas dresses for my TODDLER girls this weekend, and most of what I found looked like prom dresses... guaranteed to get them laid after the prom! I do NOT want to dress my 3 and 5 yo girls like that... :P

auburnchick
10-29-2007, 11:52 AM
You know, it's either that or the ultra gross/scary, which I don't believe in. I loved when my children were in preschool (Christian, of course), and they called it, "Let's Pretend Day." The kids dressed up as football players, doctors, or farmers.
I'll stop now before I really get on my soapbox, except that it shows that these people have no imagination. If they want to follow the crowd rather than using their imagination to create a truly clean, spectacular, original costume...oh well. I tell kids, when I hear them curse, that smart kids show how smart they are when they use words that have more than four letters. Same principle.

stitchwitch
10-29-2007, 12:10 PM
I'm a probably the most laid back person you will ever know but I have not participated in Halloween for about 8 years now because of the increase in smut and gore.
The kids costumes are either hideously gross or like others have said totally innappropriate for young children. I'm also sick of seeing adults dressed as sexual toys or hookers for the sake of airing their private fantasies in public.
I guess I'm the poop of the neighborhood but I don't participate at all anymore. I'm also sick of all the horror crap on tv the two weeks before Halloween too. I have no need to watch any movie that perpetuates some of the real life horrors I read about in the news.
My husband questioned me the other night and asked why all of our neighbors decorate for Halloween but not the holidays. I didn't have an answer. We have an Autumn Greetings wreath on our door and a ceramic pumpkin on our porch. The rest of our neighbors look like they went to a horror movie set and bought everything.

iza
10-29-2007, 12:17 PM
All these kids trick or treating on halloween in revealing clothes should come up here... they would be so cold it would probably teach them a lesson. :teehee: When I was a little girl I was living fairly far north. Our costumes needed to include a toque, mittens, boots, wool socks and a winter coat! :roflhard:

I think many women don't understand that there is a way to "own your sexuality" and still be appropriate. You can be sexy in a sophisticated way, without looking like a porn star. And of course there is a place and time to dress sexy. At school, or at work, it is NOT the place! So if grown up women can't understand this, how can they teach their daughters?

I saw on tv a very frightening documentary on little girls and sexuality. They went in a store selling clothes for girls under 12. This store was selling all kinds of very revealing clothes, including lacy thongs and leopard-patterned bras (a bra for a 7 year old girl??? Come on!). I couldn't believe my eyes! :shock:

Ronda
10-29-2007, 12:19 PM
My daughter has been taking dance classes since she was 3. (She's almost 10 now.) She started out at 3 in jazz, and it was cute. Then we added ballet, and she did ballet and jazz for a few years. Again, no concerns. One year she decided to take hip-hop as well, and her ballet class went to competition. I have never seen so many young girls dressed sooooooo scantily and doing dance moves that were VERY suggestive. My daughter now goes to a dance school where only ballet is taught - with tasteful jazz added for the older girls. I know the original post was about Halloween costumes, but these dance studios are doing the same thing to our girls and starting it out at a very young age.

auburnchick
10-29-2007, 12:51 PM
I really do think it's due to society in general. I am a child of the 70's and 80's. We would not have dared wear lingerie as regular clothing. I remember being embarrased when my bra came undone during a basketball game. You couldn't even see it, but the knowledge that things were free and easy was enough to make me cross my arms in sheer panic (not that I had much to worry about).

::::::::::::::::::sigh::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Guess I did get on my soapbox. Sorry...

candicane
10-29-2007, 01:43 PM
I'm not going to add anything that hasn't already been said, but I'm going to show off my little trick-or-treater posing with my mom!

candice

Kaydee
10-29-2007, 02:03 PM
I completely agree with all of you. I'm not sure when Halloween became an excuse for girls to dress like, um, hookers. I don't really think I saw that until I went to college and all of the girls were wearing pretty much nothing for Halloween (and I went to a conservative Catholic college!!). I went to a costume shop this weekend looking for something for a Halloween party on Saturday. I wouldn't mind being a nurse, fairy, boxer, police woman, or pirate, but I don't want to be a slutty nurse, a slutty fairy, etc. There were young girls no more than 10 holding costumes I wouldn't ever consider wearing! :noway: I wanted to say please please don't wear that. Its ridiculous.

stitchwitch
10-29-2007, 02:29 PM
Oddly enough, this just came out on our local newspaper's forum, The Tampa Tribune. Seems like we all aren't alone.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/oct/29/girls-increasingly-sexy-halloween-look-spooks-some/?news-breaking

Mommy22alyns
10-29-2007, 03:56 PM
Halloween has become "dress up slutty" day for women, and I think it's wrong.

Amen, sister! I've noticed this over the past few Halloweens just looking at the costumes in Target - the disparity in costume types between girls and boys is alarming and annoying. And yeah, don't get me started on costumes for women. :-x What, we can't be anything without being a sex object?
As the mommy of two young girls, I can already say that it's becoming a challenge to dress them as little girls. My oldest is getting out of toddler sizes and into the next step, and it's frightening what they have in a size 5. :sad:

knitgal
10-29-2007, 04:17 PM
Funnily enough there's another article about this: http://www.newsweek.com/id/62474?GT1=10450

It's really hard for me to understand this phenomenon. As I said, I am actually a part of the generation that started this, but I still don't get it. What happened? I'm going to dress my little girls like little girls and help introduce them to feminism and standing up for themselves and strong female figures! I think we should start a revolution.

monzogary
10-29-2007, 04:20 PM
This is exactly why I make most of my kids' costumes. My almost 7yo dd is going to be a fairy princess - with a long dress with long sleeves. My 4 yo dd is a pumpkin, and my teenager dd is probably just staying home this year to pass out the candy.

jcmom
10-29-2007, 04:45 PM
I really do think it's due to society in general. I am a child of the 70's and 80's. We would not have dared wear lingerie as regular clothing. I remember being embarrased when my bra came undone during a basketball game. You couldn't even see it, but the knowledge that things were free and easy was enough to make me cross my arms in sheer panic (not that I had much to worry about).

::::::::::::::::::sigh::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Guess I did get on my soapbox. Sorry...
No need to apologize for being on your soapbox. More people should do it. Maybe little girls want to dress like hookers because older girls and women do it all the time. What ever happened to modesty? If people complained about dance studios teaching suggestive moves, perhapes more places would cater to basic dance classes. I could go on, but you get the idea. :wall:

robynbird
10-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Candicane - your little trick or treater is so cute! I was wishing my kids were small enough to wear the cute animal suits I saw at Walmart.

Mommy22alyns - I hear you on the girls cloths. I often wish my daughter was small enough for toddler sizes still and she is now in jrs which is 100X worse than girls! :(

My daughter this year is dressing up as a 50's girl with the poodle skirt and button down shirt to match. My mom made it and it's super cute. My son is a ninja, but it's not a scary one. They dress up and we go to the churches in town that have things and then come home.

debinoz
10-29-2007, 04:48 PM
I live in a small, economically challenged town. Older kids (8 on up) around here don't really dress-up. Usually they use face paint or throw a sheet over their heads. The younger ones (1-7) always dress up. I can't comment on the clothes the older ones wear because they're usually covered up with a coat.

ETA: Youngest DD says that some younger kids probably get some of their fashion ideas from Bratz dolls. We don't call them that around here....

jjminarcik
10-29-2007, 06:01 PM
Whatever happened to a little mystery?



Amen!:cheering:

I don't have much to add, except that I agree with everyone. I don't have kids, but I have a 15 year old niece that I am close to. Seeing the things she wears for Halloween, Homecoming dances, etc., I'm suprised my brother lets her out of the house. I've talked to her about not "putting herself out there" and she understands. But whenever I go shopping with her I cringe at the things in the stores. :ick:

Mommy22alyns
10-30-2007, 11:40 AM
ETA: Youngest DD says that some younger kids probably get some of their fashion ideas from Bratz dolls. We don't call them that around here....

Oh boy... don't even get me started on those Bratz!! They are marketing them to girls at least as young as 3, and it's really appalling.

BostonBecca
11-01-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm going to be a dissenting voice here about certain things.

People over 18 have every right to wear what they want in public. This country was founded on freedom. Freedom to make your own choices and not have other people control what you believe, who you are, and what you wear. I am not comfortable with some of the opinions I have seen expressed here, that because you disapprove of what people are wearing, they shouldn't be doing it. The judging of people here has made me very uncomfortable. I don't judge you for believing what you believe, how you choose to raise your kids, that is your decision.

I personally chose to dress up in a sexy costume a few years while I was in college and in law school. That was my decision, and it was really fun for me. It was an informed and intelligent decision to be able to really let loose for one night a year. The judgments that have been made and assumptions in this thread that women who dress up like that are not feminists, who are not aware of the impact dressing up in a sexy costume are very upsetting. Just because someone doesn't behave how you want doesn't make them anti-feminist, anti-woman's equality, or immoral.

I don't judge you for your moral beliefs, all I ask is a little tolerance in return.

Do I personally believe that low cut and revealing items are appropriate for children? The answer is no, but I would never condemn a parent for making their own decisions about what their children wear.

MrsDavis3
11-01-2007, 09:45 AM
It's American free enterprise at its worst: sexualizing kids makes money for fashion and entertainment media industries. It's not about personal freedom, people, it's about MONEY.

Since I took my daughter out of public school, we haven't had many problems with this. Number one, we don't have a TV; Number two, all magazines I get for her are AD-FREE, and Number three, her secular private school requires uniform clothes.

However, during her first 2 yrs of school in a rural public system, a kindergarten teacher showed up on Halloween in a tight devil costume showing cleavage; I saw a mother in the office to pick up her child wearing a T-shirt with no bra that said "Kiss My Grits"... and the local dance studio for children was occasionally referred to as "The Jon Benet School of Dance", where they taught little girls to bump and grind and the teachers were dressed like prostitute dancers and had breast augmentations; I could go on.

BostonBecca
11-01-2007, 10:09 AM
I am not sure you read my post carefully.
When I referred to personal freedom, it was quite clearly in reference to those over 18.

The simple fact is that I don't think it is appropriate for liberal or conservative people to push for everyone else to act in accordance with their beliefs.

Secksiebrat
11-01-2007, 10:36 AM
On the creativity side of things, when I was 12 or so my mom made me a bag of jeally beans :)

She took a clear trash bag and cut arm and leg holes out of it. Blew up a bunch of colored/shaped ballons and throw them in and then put a red bow around my neck to close off the bag.

The only BAD thing was when I walked sometimes the balloons would pop, so don't over fill it. Maybe an idea for next year :)

~danielle~

msoebel
11-01-2007, 11:54 AM
On the creativity side of things, when I was 12 or so my mom made me a bag of jeally beans :)

She took a clear trash bag and cut arm and leg holes out of it. Blew up a bunch of colored/shaped ballons and throw them in and then put a red bow around my neck to close off the bag.

The only BAD thing was when I walked sometimes the balloons would pop, so don't over fill it. Maybe an idea for next year :)

~danielle~

So cute!

Misty

msoebel
11-01-2007, 12:01 PM
I'm going to be a dissenting voice here about certain things.

People over 18 have every right to wear what they want in public. This country was founded on freedom. Freedom to make your own choices and not have other people control what you believe, who you are, and what you wear. I am not comfortable with some of the opinions I have seen expressed here, that because you disapprove of what people are wearing, they shouldn't be doing it. The judging of people here has made me very uncomfortable. I don't judge you for believing what you believe, how you choose to raise your kids, that is your decision.

I personally chose to dress up in a sexy costume a few years while I was in college and in law school. That was my decision, and it was really fun for me. It was an informed and intelligent decision to be able to really let loose for one night a year. The judgments that have been made and assumptions in this thread that women who dress up like that are not feminists, who are not aware of the impact dressing up in a sexy costume are very upsetting. Just because someone doesn't behave how you want doesn't make them anti-feminist, anti-woman's equality, or immoral.

I don't judge you for your moral beliefs, all I ask is a little tolerance in return.

Do I personally believe that low cut and revealing items are appropriate for children? The answer is no, but I would never condemn a parent for making their own decisions about what their children wear.

I'm sorry that you felt judged or criticized. That certainly was never the intent of my original post. I agree that women over the age of 18 can wear whatever they choose and that it doesn't mean that they are a bad person or have bad jugement. Please forgive me if my posts came off as harsh or critical of you.

I am sensitve about this topic, from the other perspective, because I work with teenage guys and I know EXACTLY what goes through their little brains. They don't look at a sexy woman and go, "Oh, she's a sexy woman." By the time they finally look into the woman's eyes, they have already had sex with her in their minds and will probably do it several more times in the near future. Really, teen guys tend to be one big hormone. So no, I don't think women are stupid or non-feminist or anything else for dressing sexy...but I do wonder if they are fully aware of what is going through the minds of the guys they encounter while dressed provocatively?

The original intention of this thread was to question the sanity of parents who allow their children to be sexualized at a young age. I feel sorry for the kids, and I feel sorry for the parents who don't feel like they can say no to them. Or who think it's cute for their 8 year old's butt cheeks to hang out from under her skirt.

I do not apologize for that standpoint.

Rorshach
11-01-2007, 03:10 PM
Personally, I find it appalling to see any young girl dressing in clothes too old for her. Even speaking as a guy, the only thing that comes to mind when thinking about that image is "Pedophile". The parents of these children, who figure that it's okay, should take a step back a moment and ask themselves if they would like to have their daughters scrutinized by a pedophile. I would bet most would say no, yet here is incontrovertible proof that the answer is actually yes.

Stand up and be parents, for crying out loud, letting your offspring do as they please on Halloween is not setting a good example. Even when they reach their teenage years, at least guide them in making the proper decisions.

losnana
11-01-2007, 06:03 PM
I totally agree with everything said EXCEPT that this is not limited to Halloween. You would not believe how often, right before a court appearance, I've had to tell a teenage girl to go put a shirt on over her top. Either it showed much cleavage, was transparent or was obviously underwear. And this to appear before a judge who ws going to decide your fate!!!
Remember when the question was whether you had to kiss a boy just because he took you to a movie, and the answer was a resounding "NO!"? Well, now the question is whether you have to give oral sex to a boy for taking you to a movie! What in the world is equal about that?

Off my soapbox and off to my yarn now. As you may be able to tell, this is a sore spot with me.

kellyh57
11-01-2007, 06:33 PM
I think part of the issue is, that it's hard to find alternatives! It's hard to find something for a young girl that ISN'T too revealing! (I'm lucky in that I only have boys, but finding costumes that aren't gory or scary is difficult!) I've heard about trying to find a 1 piece bathing suit for a 2 or 3 year old. Our news station showed a story on girls trying to find prom dresses that weren't too revealing too. Apparently the designers or stores don't believe that girls actually like shoulders on their dresses! It's a sad day when you have to either add on or search high and low just to find something that's not TOO revealing for a toddler or teenager! (Let alone be pretty!)

Kelly

MellieThePooh
11-01-2007, 06:44 PM
People over 18 have every right to wear what they want in public.

Well, the key is that the topic started on children.

And at some point, you'll get arrested for not having enough clothing on; so no, they don't have every right to wear what they want in public. It's about society's values at large, no man is an island.

BostonBecca
11-02-2007, 02:57 PM
Wow, you totally and completely missed what I was discussing. This topic may have started with children, but someone else brought up other ages first. That is what I was discussing and it was very clear.
Of course there are restrictions on how far you can go with what you wear in public, but people here are casting judgment on other people for what they LEGALLY wear in public, that has been the discussion. For you to bring that into the discussion is way off topic, because no one has disagreed with the fact that there are things that you can wear that will/can get you arrested, this is not what this discussion is about, it's been about what people wear based on their own decisions and whether or not people are being judgmental and what is appropriate. People over 18 have choices to wear sexy clothing and the fact that you might disagree with that is fine, but I don't believe it's "morally" wrong or anti-feminist.

sugarfunpouch
11-02-2007, 09:33 PM
YUCK!!! I would never do that. I mean where is your self confidence there? Some girls are just getting to a point where they think that their bodies are more important than their brains. It's extremely saddening.

sugarfunpouch
11-02-2007, 10:00 PM
However, during her first 2 yrs of school in a rural public system, a kindergarten teacher showed up on Halloween in a tight devil costume showing cleavage; I saw a mother in the office to pick up her child wearing a T-shirt with no bra that said "Kiss My Grits"... and the local dance studio for children was occasionally referred to as "The Jon Benet School of Dance", where they taught little girls to bump and grind and the teachers were dressed like prostitute dancers and had breast augmentations; I could go on.

Okay, ewww!!! That is so wrong! Grinding? Is that freaking?

annomalley
11-03-2007, 05:39 PM
Well, the key is that the topic started on children.

And at some point, you'll get arrested for not having enough clothing on; so no, they don't have every right to wear what they want in public. It's about society's values at large, no man is an island.

Exactly!

I'd also like to add...

We have a choice to wear what we want as adults, but with freedom to choose also comes responsibility. If you choose to show up dressed inappropriately for the occasion, then you'd better be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions, because it was your choice to wear what you wore. You can't yell "Fire" in a crowded room because you feel like it without getting into trouble, and you can't show up at your cousin's wedding reception in an outfit that shows off your cleavage and your junk (or in stained sweats and greasy hair, for that matter), without people talking negatively about you. Why? Because both those outfits are inappropriate for the occasion at hand. Says who? Society at large.

And just because we have the freedom to choose, doesn't mean people use that freedom wisely, either. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Choosing to do something because you can and and choosing to do something when it's appropriate to do it or because it's the right thing to do is the difference between being immature and having maturity.

"Sexy" is in the eye of the beholder, and because what someone else finds sexy is so subjective, they will judge you by their standards, not yours. What I think is attractive differs from what someone else might think is attractive. I'm sure when Britney Spears leaves her house in some of those outfits she's photographed in, she thinks she's some pretty hot stuff. When I see the picture of her in those outfits, I think she looks trashy and skanky and she has no taste.

AnnaT
11-04-2007, 03:40 AM
I personally chose to dress up in a sexy costume a few years while I was in college and in law school. That was my decision, and it was really fun for me. It was an informed and intelligent decision to be able to really let loose for one night a year. The judgments that have been made and assumptions in this thread that women who dress up like that are not feminists, who are not aware of the impact dressing up in a sexy costume are very upsetting. Just because someone doesn't behave how you want doesn't make them anti-feminist, anti-woman's equality, or immoral.



I think it's fine and none of my business if you wanted to "let loose" for one night a year. It's just that the people around the person "letting loose" have to put up with it. I see very little professionalism and dignity any more. For example, I just don't need or want to see to complete top half of the newscaster's jiggly breasts in a half-unbuttoned satin blouse with heavy blue eyeshadow and pencil-thin eyebrows--it's just horrible looking and I wonder what has happened to her or her society to make her think she looks nice or professional that way. Obviously, looking nice or professional isn't her priority.

Now, if she was going out to a nightclub or something and wanted to pick up men, then it would be appropriate, I guess. The same goes for lots of regular women at the grocery store here. They teeter through the isles on spike heels that belong only in a strip club and pants cut so low I have to look at their butt crack if I have the misfortune to be standing behind them. It's just tasteless.

And it is very, very anti-feminist. For a woman to sexualize herself to the point that no one can look at or think about anything but certain body parts reduces her to those body parts, and whatever she says is disregarded. I mean, she herself is saying, "LOOK AT MY STUFF!!!!" so that means it must be okay for everyone to do so. She is giving permission for everyone to focus on her body, which is generally the least of what a human being is. Five-inch spike heels do, whether we like it or not, have a sexual connotation to them. To wear them when one is out and about sends a sexualized message to society. If a woman wants to do that, fine. I agree with you there. But she shouldn't be upset when someone laughs or rolls their eyes about it.

To me, when I see someone dressed in an overly sexy "style", it tells me that this woman is saying "Look at me! Look at me! Look at me!! I have nothing else but my body so that's what I'm going to emphasize!" It's sad.

If you want to compare, look at Angela Merkel or Drew Gilpin Faust, the president of Harvard. They dress in a careful, understated way designed to inspire respect and suggest professionalism, not sexual availability. Now look at Britney Spears. Who is respected? Who is the laughingstock?

Rorshach
11-04-2007, 03:57 AM
Okay, ewww!!! That is so wrong! Grinding? Is that freaking?

Yes, unfortunately, that is a mild way of putting it.

AnotherBecca
11-04-2007, 05:50 AM
I agree about the halloween costumes! It's SO difficult to find one that is appropriate to wear to work... I'm a first grade teacher, can't really dress up in anything "naughty". And I wouldn't anyway. We went to a halloween party last year and DH and I dressed as the Publisher's Clearing House prize guy (suit, balloons, giant cardboard check) and the surprised winner (pajamas, bathrobe, curlers!). I felt totally awkward and out of place as the only female party guest who wasn't scantily clad. This year, we went to a golf tournament and one girl was dressed as naughty Alice in Wonderland. Gee, how surprising that she came this close to winning the judged by applause costume contest.

Becky Morgan
11-04-2007, 11:42 AM
OHHHH, we have a "JonBenet School of Dance" here too! A couple of years ago, the Wheeling, WV Christmas parade telecast started with film of the JBSD at the *casino*...very young girls dressed in Rockette robes and leotards, sans pants, lying on the rocks on the casino's fake waterfall, grinding their hips to the lovely carol to materialism "Santa Baby".It was absolutely revolting.

MamaMer
11-05-2007, 12:29 PM
I guess what I find most disturbing about this trend, is that there is even a market for these types of costumes for little girls! I mean, there would be no one making them if there wasn't a lot of parents buying it! These girls aren't old enough to make their own money, drive themselves to the store or make the final transaction for the costume--why are they being allowed to choose such fare when they get to the costume section of the store?

I am trying to figure out why parents are nowadays so much less likey to say "no":wall:

On one hand I am glad that I have all boys so I don't have to deal with this so much, but otoh, I fear for them as they get older and are bombarded with these images:sad:

losnana
11-05-2007, 02:14 PM
Hear, hear!!! Parents need to be parents, not best friends, to their children!!!

Matdredalia
11-06-2007, 03:41 AM
Speaking as someone who was recently a teenager (but never really thought like one), and who is helping to raise a teenage boy, I basically agree with you, for the most part.

I've always been appalled at how provocatively young children dress, as well as the other teenagers that went to my school. Other girls were constantly trying to dodge the dress code, while I was just trying to get through my classes.

However, I don't really blame the parents, but not for the reasons you might think.

Yes, parents should be responsible for their kids, I completely agree. I don't have children of my own, but I helped raise my younger brother all his life and I feel as responsible for him as my mother is, because I was raised that parents need to know what their children are doing so that they can keep them safe. I'm not saying to put a wire on your kid, but you need to know what's going on in their life if you are to keep them safe and help them find their way into adulthood.

*begin Rant*
The problem is, parents have their children for less than half of their waking hours. Most of these kids spend more time in a class room than they do in their own homes (if you rule out sleeping at night). When they're at school, they're not being influenced by their teachers as much as we might hope. 95% of a child's influence in a school environment comes from their peers.

Then take in the fact that the average child spends their "at home" time primarily with friends, on the internet, talking on the phone, or watching television, and what does that tell you?

Most of these kids are being influenced by the media & their peers, who are also being influenced by, ding ding, the media.

How in the world are parents supposed to fight a war against what our society is perpetuating as "the way to be loved"?

Look at most of our television shows, "pop music stars", internet ads, beauty magazines, etc.

The way to be loved is to be beautiful. And little girls are trained from birth on to want to be loved via Disney Cartoons and Barbie & Ken love stories.

It is a human condition to want to be loved, and all over the media, we see the beautiful girl getting the hot guy, time and time again.

And what does our society portray beauty as? Angelina Jolie, Jennifer Aniston, Julia Roberts, and heaven help us all, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, and Lindsey Lohan.

When a little girl walks through a grocery store or Wal Mart and sees fifty magazines showing off pictures of women showing off everything they possibly can, wearing massive ammounts of beauty products, and starving themselves to death, what are they going to think?

These are women who are paid thousands of dollars just to walk into a party; obviously they're doing something right.

These are the women that America watches with obsessive interest. We read about them in magazines and online, we watch movies with them, buy CD's & MP3's of their voices.

These are the women that we mold our daughters to want to be. Whether we do it intentionally or not, whether we fight it or not, our society does it for us.

The girls that I knew who dressed like "skanks" in school didn't do so with parental permission. I watched them scrambling to change their clothing in the bathrooms before school. Heck, most of them weren't even allowed to wear makeup! I can't count how much primping went on in the girls bathroom during "breakfast time", or even at school dances and parties. And this started back when we were in 5th grade (around 1997), back when it had just become popular for very young women to dress provocatively. (Thank you Britney Spears & Crew. Blah.)

And of course, it's not like any parent is going to strip search their kid for "illegal clothing items" and makeup before school, because if you show your kid that you don't trust them, they are going to *hate* you, even if they're doing *nothing* wrong and you're just trying to protect them.
*end rant*

While I am all for parental responsibility, and it is, still, somewhat up to the parents -- there is A LOT of it that is out of the parent's control. There is only so much they can do when their children spend most of their waking hours from the age of 4 to 19 away from home.

Songbirdy
11-06-2007, 09:43 AM
As much as I complain that I have to sew my daughter's clothes because she is a size 4 waist with a size 8 length... I also do it because I want her to have the pretty fun clothes that she loves ... but without all of the skin showing!

For me, I draw a parallel between this and language.

While it is your right to use cuss words in every sentence, it doesn't gain my respect. But you do gain my respect when you describe your anger or other emotions using so many of the other words we have in this language!

Same with clothes... You can get the feeling of power from you you dress. And... it is your right and choice to dress in whatever manner.

Its not so much the clothes you wear but the manner in which you wear them. Dress a flirt in a burlap sack and she is still... going to wear that sack in a provocative way! [for the record... not pointing any fingers, just using a broad generalization]


My daughter is dressed conservatively... but she knows she is pretty and sometimes I find myself shaking in despair as she uses that over and over to get her way! And she is only 6!

Its hard!!! Everywhere we go, people are telling her she should model! Perfect strangers give her gifts! I'm not kidding!

And here is her Momma... trying her darnedest to teach the girl that her brains are her biggest asset! She's no fool! She knows perfectly well what gets her what she wants!

MamaMer
11-06-2007, 12:32 PM
And of course, it's not like any parent is going to strip search their kid for "illegal clothing items" and makeup before school, because if you show your kid that you don't trust them, they are going to *hate* you, even if they're doing *nothing* wrong and you're just trying to protect them.
*end rant*My job as a parent isn't to ensure that my children like me. It is to protect them at all costs. Will they dislike the things that I might do in order to protect them? Sure, but you know what? They will grow and mature and get over it. I did ;)

Using media influence as an excuse is not acceptable, regardless if it is a stay at home parent or a parent that works full time. The BIGGEST influence on a childs life are their parents. If a parent is unwilling to draw the line and say "no" because they feel bad or guilty bcs they don't get to spend "enough" time with them, then they need to re-evaluate their wants vs needs that might keep a second parent in a work enviroment.

Being permissive is doing your child (generic your child) a great disservice. They will grow up to think that the world owes them, that there are no absolute rights or wrongs, and that there are no boundaries.

Don't believe me? Just check out the sad states of some of our "teen idols": Britney, Lindsay, Nicole, and Paris just to name a few. They do what they please bcs they have never been told "no" and they contribute little or nothing to the world, other that to show off their excess. :( These are women who could hold great power in showing our young ladies how to behave, how to be classy and respected, instead they choose the wide road. Very sad.

LoAnnie
11-06-2007, 01:18 PM
As a soon-to-be mother I must agree with some of the things said in this thread, and disagree with some as well. Of course I will not be buying provocative clothing for my young daughter. I also believe that children should be told no.
However, I grew up in a very conservative household where my mother would not allow me to wear the current styles. I was a kid who changed clothes in the morning after I got to school. Now the clothes I wanted to wear weren't provocative, they were only stylish (for the time). Ripped up jeans with colored leggings underneath.
Now someone was talking about wearing provocative clothing to a college party (don't remember who at the moment). She was not talking about going to work dressed this way or walking the street this way. It is completely appropriate to wear provocative clothing to a college party with other consenting adults. Now, I do believe girls should be taught how to keep themselves out of trouble, before this time comes in their lives. Such as don't go anywhere by yourself at a college party. If you put your drink down, or someone else holds it for you, dump it and get another one. etc. So, anyway, if an adult can't handle herself and protect herself, then she shouldn't be at the party in the first place. Otherwise, all other bets are off, and she should do as she wants. And she will feel very awkward and out-of-place, if she doesn't let loose and have a little fun.
By the way, I'm an engineer, who spent several fun years at college, and I don't dress provocatively now. Nor do I believe I was ever ridiculed or made fun of for my choices in clothing, but I'm no Britney Spears.

LoAnnie

Songbirdy
11-06-2007, 02:28 PM
I agree with the comment that parents are not meant to be friends with their children...

But I'd add FIRST...


There is a huge separation between being friends with your child and having a contentious relationship!

I've seen many Parent-Child relationships where there is a friendship. They were good examples and I hope that I can have that! I know my mother and I had many, many battles, mostly when I was in high school and I hope that I can weather that age with my children with more grace!

Kels Joy.
11-06-2007, 04:48 PM
i'm speaking as a 15 year old girl, saying i COMPLETELY agree with you all. i tried shopping for my halloween costume and looking at the wall of "teen costumes" was like looking at a wall of themed undergarments :gah: . i tried on a tinkerbell costume from the adult section, as i refused to even try on a custume from the "teen" section, and aside from looking terrible on me because i'm no where near as tiny as the model on the package, the amount of cleavege that would've shown thanks to the overly low neckline would've been horrible. i ended up going for the whilma flintstone costume, that was respectable- the dress went down to about my knees and thanks to the black sweatshirt i wore underneath, there was absoluetly no cleavege.
i really dont understand how some parents do let their children go out there like that. i'm only 15 and even i can see that that's just... yuck. my mother has no problem telling me no [not that i'd want to wear that stuff] but i dont understand how others cant.
but another thing that bothers me is the young kids with cell phones! i understand as technology gets more and more common, this is bound to happen, but 9 year olds with cell phones? my own 10 year old cousin has a little pink cell phone with txting, and it makes me want to scream every single time i see her txting one of her little 9 year old friends on their cell phone. honestly what use does an elementry schooler have with a cell phone??

Matdredalia
11-06-2007, 06:57 PM
My job as a parent isn't to ensure that my children like me. It is to protect them at all costs. Will they dislike the things that I might do in order to protect them? Sure, but you know what? They will grow and mature and get over it. I did ;)

Using media influence as an excuse is not acceptable, regardless if it is a stay at home parent or a parent that works full time. The BIGGEST influence on a childs life are their parents. If a parent is unwilling to draw the line and say "no" because they feel bad or guilty bcs they don't get to spend "enough" time with them, then they need to re-evaluate their wants vs needs that might keep a second parent in a work enviroment.

Being permissive is doing your child (generic your child) a great disservice. They will grow up to think that the world owes them, that there are no absolute rights or wrongs, and that there are no boundaries.

Don't believe me? Just check out the sad states of some of our "teen idols": Britney, Lindsay, Nicole, and Paris just to name a few. They do what they please bcs they have never been told "no" and they contribute little or nothing to the world, other that to show off their excess. :( These are women who could hold great power in showing our young ladies how to behave, how to be classy and respected, instead they choose the wide road. Very sad.

I wasn't blaming the media, I'm blaming society as a whole. We put our kids out of their parent's reach for a large portion of the day and there is only so much that a parent can do to combat that without creating a war zone, and even then, they're still going to fail miserably. I agree that parents are responsible on some level, but more and more we are forcing parents to give their kids up for large portions of the day, more than ever, and the parents have less and less control of what their child does when not in their hands. Even stay at home parents only have their kids for so much of the day.

Yes, the parents are responsible for their children, but they are only human, too.

I'm not about to get into the child vs. parent aspect here, because it will seem like I'm trying to tell other people how to raise their kids, and I can not, and will not do that. It's not my right.

I'm not about to try and argue any of this, because it steps way too far into the realm of sociology and parenting, and I'm only qualified in one of those fields, so I'm just going to say "that's my opinion" and stay out of it.

And I just wanted to add one last thing: It's not that I don't believe that parents should tell their children no. On the contrary, I'm a big fan of parental involvement and in teaching kids right from wrong. However, if you tell your kid "no" every time they want to do something, it does tend to create a lot of hostility. You have to pick and choose your battles, of course, but unfortunately, parents are being thrown a LOT of hard battles right now.

marykz
11-07-2007, 12:20 PM
And I just wanted to add one last thing: It's not that I don't believe that parents should tell their children no. On the contrary, I'm a big fan of parental involvement and in teaching kids right from wrong. However, if you tell your kid "no" every time they want to do something, it does tend to create a lot of hostility. You have to pick and choose your battles, of course, but unfortunately, parents are being thrown a LOT of hard battles right now.

to hijack this thought a little bit- I'm reading an interesting book in one of my book groups about parents and kids. it is called "Child-proofing your marriage; keeping your marriage a priority during the parenting years" by Dr Debbie Cherry.

it talks a lot about keeping the parents united, and how to pick and choose the appropriate battles that pass on your chosen values to your kids.

I think parents do face a lot of battles, and may not have enough time/ will/ desire to fight them all. I know I'm facing some in our life.

Matdredalia
11-08-2007, 09:24 PM
to hijack this thought a little bit- I'm reading an interesting book in one of my book groups about parents and kids. it is called "Child-proofing your marriage; keeping your marriage a priority during the parenting years" by Dr Debbie Cherry.

it talks a lot about keeping the parents united, and how to pick and choose the appropriate battles that pass on your chosen values to your kids.

I think parents do face a lot of battles, and may not have enough time/ will/ desire to fight them all. I know I'm facing some in our life.

That, actually, was my point :)

Parents are being thrown all sorts of battles, and many do not have any kind of real precedent. We're in a new era, and things are rapidly changing. We've got little girls shaking it like Shakira & Britney and carrying around cell phones. I'm just barely hitting "parenting" age, and this wasn't even going on when I was a kid. It's a totally new ballgame for parents, and it's a very hard road that they have to walk. And I honestly do not believe that parents are always to blame. Sometimes, parents have to say "yes" on things they'd rather not, so as to have enough stability in their child parent relationships to be able to hold firm on the "no" on other things.

Honestly, if it were a choice between my daughter walking out of the house in a pair of tight jeans and a low cut blouse to school or to a dance, as opposed to going to a party where she might wind up doing drugs, drinking, etc. I would most definitely choose the lesser of two evils.

And while that may seem like an outlandish situation; I've seen it happen more than once. Kids are more inclined to listen when they see you being "rational" in other areas. However, if you just say "no" to everything, it seems like you're just trying to "ruin their life". Which creates a lot of hostility and, in the long run, may just wind up hurting the kids and the parents more in the long run.

Like I said, this is just hypothetical, and it's just how I would react in the situation, but to me, it just seems really unfair to blame parents for everything that's going on when there is a much larger problem occurring in our world.

But then again, that may just be the sociologist in me talking.

brightspot
11-11-2007, 03:09 AM
It isn't just costumes. My girls are 15 and 13. I cannot find shirts for them. It doesn't matter where you shop, Walmart, Pennys, or the teen shops the clothes are tiny and indecent. My oldest is very skinny and tiny, yet she can't find shirts. The shirts supposedly for her age group are all 6" across and skin tight! I have to buy them shirts, not dry the shirts when they are washed and stretch the heck out of them to get them to fit the girls!! The girls aren't big enough yet for a womans 4 and too big for a girls 16. Shopping is a nightmare:hair: . It is sad when your 15 year old says "mom, I can't breathe, the shirt is too tight. I thought corsets had gone out ages ago!

MrsDavis3
11-11-2007, 10:12 AM
Sexualizing pre-pubertal children is completely wrong and dangerous and unfair to the children, BUT for people in the next age group, I think cultural norms are perverting the natural order of things.

Let's not forget: it is absolutely natural in a biological sense for humans who have reached puberty to make significant efforts to attract the opposite sex. In our culture, recently post-pubertal individuals are often expected to delay sexual gratification, sometimes for YEARS and YEARS, in spite of the fact that the natural history of humans comprises mating fairly soon after puberty. In a biological sense, Why Wait? So all those repressed natural urges have to go somewhere! Some say that a girl who wants to show her body off has "low self-esteem"; isn't she just a normal human being entering the childbearing years?

Becky Morgan
11-11-2007, 12:52 PM
Sure, teenagers have always been inclined to follow their hormones, but there's something else at work here. Showing off your body is one thing. Being desprate about putting it on public display and being ashamed because it doesn't look like the latest Hollywood ideal is not a good way to build self-esteem. If we're supposed to be teaching girls to honor their sexuality and make their own choices, why are we teaching them that:
their bodies matter far more than their minds,
they are incomplete at any age unless they have attracted men
they simply must mate as soon and as often as possible, whether they like the guy or not, or something's wrong with them. Yes, my parents were aghast when one of my teachers told them exactly that about me. "She doesn't have to LIKE a guy, she just has to, you know, get some experience or she'll turn out funny!" I was 14 at the time. That was 1972. It's gotten much worse.

After he looked at some of the clothes on sale for very young girls, my son (about to turn 18) rather acidly suggested schools become nudist colonies. "Nobody could hide any weapons, nobody's parents would be going broke buying this (expletive deleted), and after a while nobody's even going to notice."

While girls are dressing in extreme clothing, they're not learning how to dress for business, or any workplace we'd like them employed in. They're not learning how to put on makeup and take it off without hurting their skin. They're not learning that spike heels will indeed tear up your back if you wear them too much or they aren't properly fitted. All they know is that BritneyParisNicoleWhoozit wears an outfit and if they want to compete for the guys right now, that's what they think they need because TV says so.

MrsDavis3
11-15-2007, 12:46 PM
Becky:

Well put and I agree.

My point was that we need to acknowledge the source of the desire to be desired, rather than label it "immoral" and expect the kids to repress it. I would never argue that they should be left to go wild in a sort of sexual "Lord of the Flies" scenario. I think more confident and reasoned guidance is what is required, rather than moral censure.

But the forces on the other side are so strong! The culture of celebrity, exhibitionism, and consumerism is a potent foe.

Becky Morgan
11-15-2007, 11:13 PM
No one ever says, flat out, "Sexuality is beautiful and natural. It's part of you and helps to make you who you are. It's very powerful and you need to respect yourself. Use it in such a way that when you look back when you're a hundred, you won't be embarrassed. You don't ever have to express it in any way that makes you uncomfortable or makes you feel like less of a person. No one who really loves you would ever ask you to do that."

inkaholic
11-21-2007, 01:30 PM
I'm 17 and I graduated from high school this year. My school never had a dress code, because they didn't need one. The building was a converted factory and had no windows, so they put the air conditioning on year round to give proper ventilation. The freshman girls would always wear sexy things to school for the first two weeks, then get too cold to keep it up. Seriously, to stay warm you had to wear long pants and sweatshirts year round...
Though the whole thing with parenting and clothes, my 12 year old cousin is fighting all these battles with her mother because she wants to wear some black clothes and shop at hot topic (she's obsessed with Avril Lavigne) and the mother refuses to let her choose her clothes. It just makes her daughter hate her even more, because she won't let her have any individuality. The mom absolutely refuses to compromise.
I can see why the mom gets frustrated, though. I always say that the scariest thing in the world is a preteen girl...6th and 7th grade girls are evil. That movie Mean Girls should've been set in junior high.