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Kaydee
11-12-2007, 11:17 AM
The one radio station that comes in clear in my office is a great oldies station. But they've started all Christmas music all the time. Now don't get me wrong, I love :heart: Chirstmas music. But I'm not sure how to feel about this. Starting it after Thanksgiving is one thing but Veteran's Day? That's a little early.

gingerbread
11-12-2007, 11:30 AM
I am with ya but here it right after Halloween!:tap:In fact Halloween isn't over when the Christmas stuff is on the shelves :thud:Oh well just have to get used to it. At least I can get my halloween stuff 75% earlier every year.:roflhard::roflhard:

GinnyG
11-12-2007, 11:43 AM
The clinic I work in has already started putting up Christmas Decorations. They are having some kind of contest and every area is trying to out do the next. It is overboard and excessive. Sick people don't want to have to be in a room that looks like Santa vomited all over the walls.

I hate to be a GRINCH but I have declared my area a "Christmas Free" zone. I live in an area where there is a great deal of cultural diversity and not everyone is Christian. I think it is inconsiderate of those who do not celebrate the holiday to start so early and have so much.

I love Christmas music and decorations, during the season. WHich in my opinion is a couple weeks before and the week between Christmas and New Years.

stitchwitch
11-12-2007, 11:44 AM
No Christmas music yet here. They have started cranking it up before Thanksgiving though so I'm expecting it in a week or so. I kinda like Christmas music but I swear every single one of the songs sticks in my head and I go around humming them all day long, I can't help it, it drives me nuts.

Ingrid
11-12-2007, 11:58 AM
Last year, our local station--the one I like to listen to in the car--started Christmas music right after Halloween. It was awful!

I sent an email to the station objecting, and got an answer with a bunch of hooey about how Christmas makes everyone feel better, especially when there's a war going on :??, blah, blah, blah.

I answered, pointing out that Christmas is a time for serious depression for a lot of people, it gets kids crazed, it makes people worry about affording all the things their children see on TV, and as for a war, how is Christmas music on Nov. 1 going to make loved ones feel better? I told him that I'd make a point NOT to listen to the station until January.

Another email basically saying, OK, see you then.

It turns out that it was a fiasco, after all. Even the DJ's made comments after it was over, and that particular General Manager is no longer with the station.

So there!

Kaydee
11-12-2007, 12:12 PM
Last year, our local station--the one I like to listen to in the car--started Christmas music right after Halloween. It was awful!
Before Halloween!! Now that's just crazy. We've had the Christmas decorations in the stores since before Halloween, but the music? That's just way too early!

itsjustmeghan
11-12-2007, 12:23 PM
i have to admit it.....
i started listening to it.....:hiding:

you have to understand, i played in bands/orchestras the entire time i was growing up, and we started practicing it around this time of year. so when it starts to smell like fall, and has that crisp bite in the air, it's natural for me to want to hear it. so, i popped in charlie brown's christmas while i knitted up some gifts this past weekend. and, i started practicing my christmas music on my harp.

now that i work from home, i don't bother anyone with my early christmas music anticipation for the holidays silliness.
i guess i still manage to have that excitement feeling i had the entire time i was growing up around this time of year. i don't shop in malls, so i never get overwhelmed with holiday shopping or commercialism. yes. i manage to live in a baking/knitting/online shopping bubble. and i love it!
i'll go back to my corner now....:teehee:

iza
11-12-2007, 01:06 PM
It's true, the Holidays are very hard on many people unfortunately. My mom is a counsellor and she gets very busy around Christmas. :pout: It's supposed to be a time of happiness, but for those who are facing emotional difficulties, it can get worst.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I think stores do it to make people buy gifts as early as possible, hoping they will keep buying until December 24 and forget about their budget. :wall:

For me, because they start so early, I get so fed up by Christmas time I don't even feel like celebrating it anymore. :shrug: I love Christmas music and the Christmas spirit, but... not in November!

bailsmom
11-12-2007, 02:12 PM
The clinic I work in has already started putting up Christmas Decorations. They are having some kind of contest and every area is trying to out do the next. It is overboard and excessive. Sick people don't want to have to be in a room that looks like Santa vomited all over the walls.

I hate to be a GRINCH but I have declared my area a "Christmas Free" zone. I live in an area where there is a great deal of cultural diversity and not everyone is Christian. I think it is inconsiderate of those who do not celebrate the holiday to start so early and have so much.
I love Christmas music and decorations, during the season. WHich in my opinion is a couple weeks before and the week between Christmas and New Years.


I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but doesn't everyone have the right to do what they want, when they want? And what does "cultural diversity" have to do with it? Just because my neighbor is of a different culture and doesn't celebrate the holidays doesn't mean I should not decorate my house. It's something I celebrate and that should be the end of it.

Yes I know it's a religious holiday and all, but if you aren't a Christian and are of a different religious backround, don't others have to put up with the things you celebrate when they don't believe what you believe?

And when I say "you", I don't mean you personally Ginny. I mean "you" in the sense of everyone.

Christmas is a wonderful time of year simply for the fact that everyone seems to treat everyone better than any other time of the year. It brings out the goodness in people. And I do realize that it is also a hard time of year for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean those who do have some good in their lives shouldn't be able to celebrate when they want to.

I do think that Christmas music before Thanksgiving is a little early, but this is the world we live in, everything is rushed. We must get used to it, it isn't going to slow down anytime soon.

GinnyG
11-12-2007, 04:05 PM
I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but doesn't everyone have the right to do what they want, when they want? And what does "cultural diversity" have to do with it? Just because my neighbor is of a different culture and doesn't celebrate the holidays doesn't mean I should not decorate my house. It's something I celebrate and that should be the end of it.

Yes I know it's a religious holiday and all, but if you aren't a Christian and are of a different religious backround, don't others have to put up with the things you celebrate when they don't believe what you believe?

And when I say "you", I don't mean you personally Ginny. I mean "you" in the sense of everyone.

Christmas is a wonderful time of year simply for the fact that everyone seems to treat everyone better than any other time of the year. It brings out the goodness in people. And I do realize that it is also a hard time of year for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean those who do have some good in their lives shouldn't be able to celebrate when they want to.

I do think that Christmas music before Thanksgiving is a little early, but this is the world we live in, everything is rushed. We must get used to it, it isn't going to slow down anytime soon.

I understand what you are saying and I am not saying that Christmas should be totally ignore BUT I think in our society it goes WAY BEYOND just celebrating the good in our lives. Plastering every square inch of space with Christmas Decorations and playing Christmas music moorning noon and night for 8 weeks before a holiday has little to do with celebration. It's commercial and it's crass in addition to being insensitive.

Many years ago I was in a very difficult place around the holidays. I had lost a child and the Holidays were the first "milestone" occasion I needed to get through. For the weeks before Christmas everywhere I went people were wishing me a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY HOLIDAY. Their intentions may have been good but for me it was a very painful and constant reminder that, at least for that year, my Holiday was not going to be Merry or Happy.

Christmas is a wonderful time of year, for those who celebrate it and those who have reason to celebrate. I just think that we need to be a bit more sensitive to those around us who are not Christian or who may not want to be reminded with every encouter in a store or business that Christmas is coming.

I never wish anyone a Merry Christmas unless I know for a fact that they are celebrating the holiday. In my area there are many Muslims, Hindus and Buddhist's, I can imagine it must be rather hard for them when for weeks out of the year people are wishing them a Merry Christmas. So I guess my answer is no, I don't think that everyone should have to put up with my celebrations if they don't believe the same as I do.

I'm REALLY not trying to be ornery but I think that in addition to Christmas being a time for celebration it is a time for compassion and understanding.

Sandi
11-13-2007, 12:52 AM
This is a subject that totally pisses me off. Stores are only in it for the retail sales angle. All they are there for is to make money.
I do not need to hear christmas music on the radio, or in store's until 2 weeks before christmas!
It's gotten to the point, and I don't think i'm the only one, that by the time christmas comes I just want it over with.
Sort of like the end of hockey season. everything has it's time and place, but it dosen't have to go on forever.....
And yes "Bailsmom" everyone has the right to what they want when they want it, but retailers are stuffing holidays down our throats!
As far as those who do not celebrate christmas, or any other holiday for that matter, people have to realize that in "North America" most of us do. If I moved to a country that did not celebrate, lets say.....Easter, Thanksgiving or Christmas.... do I have the right to Bitch about the fact that they don't?
We have gotten so concerned about being politically correct, that most people don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe in or consider traditions in their own lives.
Don't mean to step on any toes, but christmas in October is not needed......

Rorshach
11-13-2007, 01:12 AM
I listen to Christmas music all year long, though not constantly. I have it on my extensive mp3 playlist. And it's usually set to random, so I hear it now and then. And I rarely listen to the radio, as I can access my mp3 playlist from anywhere in the world, radio has pretty much become pointless.

SnarfyCat
11-13-2007, 01:52 AM
I hate to play devil's advocate :shifty: , esp considering I think that Christmas is excessively commercialized, but as my brother is married et spends Xmas Eve, Xmas, et the day after with her family, my mother et I decided to do Xmas with them the night of Thanksgiving.

We celebrate Thanksgiving at dinner et Xmas that night or the next morning. That way there isn't any rushing et getting to see their girls for an hour et have them on their way somewhere else.

I am glad the music plays et the season can be smelled in the air because then it is more Christmassy for us when we get together.

hocns
11-13-2007, 07:33 AM
I get more and more tired of Christmas every year. The garbage in the stores, the ugly "decorations" all over the place, the stupid commercials, and the ghastly "music" being played incessantly from the day after hallowe'en on. In fact, the only good thig about Christmas these days is that people take down their Hallowe'en "decorations".

I love a lot of Christmas music, but not the crap generally played on radio stations and piped into stores. If I had to listen to that crap for 2 months, I would be stark staring mad!

GinnyG
11-13-2007, 08:27 AM
As far as those who do not celebrate christmas, or any other holiday for that matter, people have to realize that in "North America" most of us do. If I moved to a country that did not celebrate, lets say.....Easter, Thanksgiving or Christmas.... do I have the right to Bitch about the fact that they don't?
We have gotten so concerned about being politically correct, that most people don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe in or consider traditions in their own lives.
Don't mean to step on any toes, but christmas in October is not needed......
Just for the sake of discussion, not argument I'm not sure I agree the "most" people celebrate Christmas. Of course "most" is relative but a recent Harris poll I found online indicates that only 79% of the population is "Christian" and of that population only 56% profess to actually believe in God. The 79% also includes religions such as Jehova's Witness who do not celebrate Christmas. So while I think it is fair to say that a "majority" celebrate Christmas I think there are a significant number who do not.

Being "politically correct" does not mean that a person cannot celebrate a tradition in their own life it simply means being aware that not everyone around them shares those beliefs.

I absolutely believe that Christmas should be celebrated with all the gusto one choses in your home or church. It is after all a personal religious holiday.

It seems we all agree that the Holiday has become too commercial and that retailers have marketed it too aggressively.

Kaydee
11-13-2007, 10:43 AM
Just for the sake of discussion, not argument I'm not sure I agree the "most" people celebrate Christmas. Of course "most" is relative but a recent Harris poll I found online indicates that only 79% of the population is "Christian" and of that population only 56% profess to actually believe in God. The 79% also includes religions such as Jehova's Witness who do not celebrate Christmas. So while I think it is fair to say that a "majority" celebrate Christmas I think there are a significant number who do not.
But you also have to remember that just because only 56% believe in God doesn't mean they don't Celebrate Christmas. Its like how a lot of people who aren't Christian celebrate Christmas because it has made such a move away from being a religious holiday to almost a secular holiday (for many people, not all though).

That being said, I do really like Christmas music, I just really get sick of it when you hear the same songs over and over for a month and a half. It'd be the same if the raido station only played 50 songs on random repeat for a month. You get sick of it even if you like it.

mks22300
11-13-2007, 10:51 AM
i have to admit it.....
i started listening to it.....:hiding:

you have to understand, i played in bands/orchestras the entire time i was growing up, and we started practicing it around this time of year. so when it starts to smell like fall, and has that crisp bite in the air, it's natural for me to want to hear it. so, i popped in charlie brown's christmas while i knitted up some gifts this past weekend. and, i started practicing my christmas music on my harp.

now that i work from home, i don't bother anyone with my early christmas music anticipation for the holidays silliness.
i guess i still manage to have that excitement feeling i had the entire time i was growing up around this time of year. i don't shop in malls, so i never get overwhelmed with holiday shopping or commercialism. yes. i manage to live in a baking/knitting/online shopping bubble. and i love it!
i'll go back to my corner now....:teehee:

I am so glad that I'm not the only one! I start listening to Christmas music in October because of all my years in band and chorus. I listen to it at home or in my car so I don't bother anyone. I do get picked on by one of my friends, but it's all in good nature. I admit, I did take my cd's to work yesterday, but I'm a preschool teacher and they are already starting to get the Christmas high...besides, they sing Roudolph all year so they don't care. :teehee:

Knitting_Guy
11-13-2007, 11:00 AM
I enjoy the music but wish they would hold off until after Thanksgiving. As far as I am concerned, Thanksgiving marks the beginning of the holiday season, not Halloween.

dustinac
11-13-2007, 11:37 AM
ok well first I don't think the retailers commercialized the holiday...we did...they would not have Christmas out right now if we didn't buy it... if it sat on the shelves till after Thanksgiving they would then put the shelves to better use...however many of us have to buy things here and there and not all at once...so for us it makes it easier to start earlier so we are ready to go, come the holiday season time...

Second, I think I have a right to celebrate Christmas and I'm sorry if I say Merry Christmas to you and it offends you it's not my intent...but it is what I celebrate and I will not censor myself to make others more comfy...I have no problem with others wishing me a happy or blessed whatever they are celebrating... I have no problems with their decorations... I choose to celebrate Christmas and I will do so freely not behind closed doors... I just wish we had more tolerance for those who celebrate whatever brings them joy and peace…instead of bickering learn about each other’s religions and see we are all content in our decisions and for the most part mean no harm…

Third, I love Christmas music... right now we are listening to non stop Christmas play music in the house...but I love when I can turn XM holiday channel on and listen to the music... I love the baking of the holiday season with my kids... I love the excitement I see in their little eyes that glows brighter each day we get closer... why because of Santa of course...but also because they love the traditions... it's so much fun... bringing out our nativity scene and having them now tell me the story as we place baby Jesus in the manager...doing the little Advent calendar each year and them already asking me about it... it's seeing the excitement as they prepare for their Christmas play and that final night that they get to show it to us at the Church...it's the big meal we share and the excitement they have in helping me prepare it... it's the drive home to WV with them all giddy in the back seat and can't wait to see their grandparents...It's the joy of the season... I love it..

I'm still like a big kid when it gets close to Christmas...dh says I make it so contagious you have to join... my dad is the same way and that is one of my fondest memories growing up... the way he would get come Nov and then in Dec... he made it so much fun... and I want to do the same for my kids...I've always been pretty much if your going to whine go find someone else to stand beside... you get to chose how you feel this Christmas season... I choose to be happy and live through my kids and their excitement... I choose not to let the gripers and the stores turn me into a griper... I will wish everyone a very Merry Christmas cause that is just who I am...

elaineb
11-13-2007, 11:39 AM
I agree I think that Christmas music should start at Thanksgiving. I start the season with watching the Macy's parade and seeing Santa come into town. all the little ones stayed glued to the TV for this, and then its Christmas season--at least here in my house ;) .

kellyh57
11-13-2007, 01:27 PM
You know what's really funny...I used to work at a country radio station. We played Christmas music between Thanksgiving and Christmas in the mix. (Not full time, just every once in a while.) We had orders to only play "non-religious" Christmas music. Anything that said Jesus or Christ or anything like that was forbidden. Um, isn't CHRISTMAS about CHRIST? I laughed every time they put up the note. I think a ton of people celebrate Christmas even though they claim to be non-Christian or don't go to church. It's more of a commercialized holiday than it is a religious holiday anymore.

Kelly

divagirl
11-13-2007, 02:05 PM
I keep thinking of this Sesame Street video my son had when he was young, Elmo Saves Christmas. Elmo wished that it was Christmas every day and when it was, Christmas wasn't really all that special. For me, starting it so early kind of sucks the special out of it. I mean half the fun is the anticipation leading up to it right? Day after Thnaksgiving I will happily listen to the christmas music thru New Years eve.
Thanksgiving is really getting the short end of the stick - it's my favorite holiday! I have to agree that we as a society have made Christmas as commercial as it is

scout52
11-13-2007, 09:14 PM
I do not practice any religion yet I celebrate christmas because I like to give presents.

I used to work retail and now i hate christmas music because that is all I heard. The holiday season really should start on Black Friday.why? Because that's when people lose their freakin mind and turn into animals and treat the retail people like crap while they for their supposed love ones. oooh the horrible memories black friday brings back. *shudder*

what really bothers me about the holiday season is how "unchristian" some christian people become. If I have to see One more sign proclaiming "the only reason for the season is Jesus" or "ban happy holidays' I'm going to scream

It makes me want to find the person who posted the billboard and scream HELLOOOOO Jesus was a practicing JEW!!!! and Hanukkah came first you fool!!! What didn't you know those lucky jewish kids get 8 days of presents??? ARGGGHHHH Jesus would not be happy to see these people acting so unchristian and hateful towards his people. His mother was Jewish and that's like hating on his mother. And hellooo St. Nick was a real bishop who evolved into a great symbol to the nordic countries so don't be hating on him. St nick evolved into Santa Claus. uggh i hate ignorance.

Mommy22alyns
11-13-2007, 09:53 PM
For me, because they start so early, I get so fed up by Christmas time I don't even feel like celebrating it anymore. :shrug: I love Christmas music and the Christmas spirit, but... not in November!

Me too! Again.. former retail rat, so I'm tetchy. I get irritated that everyone seems to forget about Thanksgiving, a perfectly good and enjoyable holiday. Yet retail just jumps from Halloween to Christmas - why? Because people mainly just buy food for Thanksgiving. Take some time, rest a bit, enjoy fall, and hang out with your family.
I hate to go to the mall before Halloween and see Christmas decorations up. I even hate to see 2008 calendar racks out in August. Who's buying calendars in August?
And as far as "Christmas" goes... I really wish everyone would take a deep breath and chill about it. If I say, "Merry Christmas" (which I've learned not to do :fingerwag: ) I mean to share joy, happiness, goodwill... whatever. It doesn't matter what you do or don't celebrate and I'm not forcing anything on you. It's my way of wishing you well. It's supposed to be a season of love and caring but it's turned into a huge battleground.

And yes... it is sad, but retail employees get treated like crap this time of year too. 10 years ago, it was fun to work on Christmas Eve, ring people up, and wish them a Merry Christmas. For some reason especially after 9/11, people just got meaner and ruder. What a loss.

Mommy22alyns
11-13-2007, 09:59 PM
It's more of a commercialized holiday than it is a religious holiday anymore.
I think it is what you make of it. You in the general sense, of course. I don't like the forced removal of anything slightly "religious" either though. It's just excessively PC IMO. Here's the holiday, take from it what you will.

scout52
11-13-2007, 10:32 PM
Isn't horrible how they treat retail people?? i worked in retail while i was in college and law school and let me tell you. holiday shoppers are SOOO MEAN!!! especially on christmas eve. And it doesn't matter if you say merry christmas, happy holidays, seasons greetings, you never made them happy. I've had stuff thrown at me, people trying to hit me, spit at me all for buying christmas stuff. I could never get their product fast enough, the product they wanted wasn't in stock, or they never knew what to get and I should read the recipeint's mind to figure out what would be the best gift in the world for them.

which is why i told them all to take up knitting. LOL then they wouldn't be soo stressed out. of course the response i got was like i had 2 heads.

which is why when I shop I refold everything, put everything back in its place, if i am in rack and something is off the hanger, i re-hang it. I've even brought in treats to employees to stores that I know will be jammed because i know they don't get to take breaks. and if i waited in line for awhile i always tell them i understand.

bailsmom
11-14-2007, 12:06 AM
Isn't horrible how they treat retail people?? i worked in retail while i was in college and law school and let me tell you. holiday shoppers are SOOO MEAN!!! especially on christmas eve. And it doesn't matter if you say merry christmas, happy holidays, seasons greetings, you never made them happy. I've had stuff thrown at me, people trying to hit me, spit at me all for buying christmas stuff. I could never get their product fast enough, the product they wanted wasn't in stock, or they never knew what to get and I should read the recipeint's mind to figure out what would be the best gift in the world for them.

which is why i told them all to take up knitting. LOL then they wouldn't be soo stressed out. of course the response i got was like i had 2 heads.

which is why when I shop I refold everything, put everything back in its place, if i am in rack and something is off the hanger, i re-hang it. I've even brought in treats to employees to stores that I know will be jammed because i know they don't get to take breaks. and if i waited in line for awhile i always tell them i understand.


Really?? I have never seen such things. Of course for me, it's finding the rudest, b!tchiest, crabbiest, most horrible sales people. I've worked in retail, but not dept store retail, so I know how it can be, but all I seem to find are mean sales people. :shrug:

Where on earth do you folks live?? That's terrible that those people treated you that way. I'm very sorry to hear that.

scout52
11-14-2007, 12:29 AM
i worked at filene's basement, limited too and circuit city. All those places brought out the worse in people. And nothing like filene's basement bridal special-ooooh fear the bridezilla -do not get between her and her dress.

SnarfyCat
11-14-2007, 12:39 AM
Of course "most" is relative but a recent Harris poll I found online indicates that only 79% of the population is "Christian" and of that population only 56% profess to actually believe in God. The 79% also includes religions such as Jehova's Witness who do not celebrate Christmas.

K, pardon my stupidity, but how can you be Christian et not believe in God?? Where do they think Christ came from if there is no God?

scout52
11-14-2007, 02:28 AM
People can consider themselves "Christian" because they were raised that way but no longer believe in God.

I was raised Catholic so technically I'm Christian but I don't particularly believe in God. I still know all the prayers and I will go to church with my grandmother. I went through the whole catholic shebang. I went to a catholic college.

GinnyG
11-14-2007, 08:06 AM
K, pardon my stupidity, but how can you be Christian et not believe in God?? Where do they think Christ came from if there is no God?


Actually, I was suprised when I read that to. But then I got to thinking about it. Many people consider Church to be a "social" opportunity more than a spiritual opportunity. Some attend because of habit, family or peer pressure. I recently attended a service at a Unitarian Church (considered a Christian religion) and discovered that they accept all beliefs and embrace any spiritual theology. So I guess there are alot of people attending Church who don't believe in God.

iza
11-14-2007, 09:15 AM
Being Christian can mean various things for some people. It can be believing in God, and/or following Jesus' "philosophy", and/or having a Christian culture/identity. I have many friends who believe in God but don't believe that Jesus resurrected (or even existed) and they still call themselves "Christians" . They just never bothered to do research on other religions and so for them, believing in God automatically means being Christian, the religion they were raised in.

It's possible that some churches encourage this confusion as well. I know that for the Catholic church (at least here in the province), if you are Baptized, you are Catholic, no matter what you believe and what you think. Even if you go through the procedure of renouncing to your baptism, or if you convert to another religion, they still count you as a Catholic! So when the Catholic church says "there are x millions Catholics in this province", they actually include a lot of people who do not believe in God and/or Jesus.

scout52
11-14-2007, 02:45 PM
It's possible that some churches encourage this confusion as well. I know that for the Catholic church (at least here in the province), if you are Baptized, you are Catholic, no matter what you believe and what you think. Even if you go through the procedure of renouncing to your baptism, or if you convert to another religion, they still count you as a Catholic! So when the Catholic church says "there are x millions Catholics in this province", they actually include a lot of people who do not believe in God and/or Jesus.

Yep you are correct. I know my old diocese still counts me as one of theirs. even though I no longer practice catholicism. I do not believe in the religion and only go to church once a year with my grandmother , why because I love her, and i'm not going to upset her with my lack of beliefs.

auburnchick
11-14-2007, 03:54 PM
Actually, I was suprised when I read that to. But then I got to thinking about it. Many people consider Church to be a "social" opportunity more than a spiritual opportunity. Some attend because of habit, family or peer pressure. I recently attended a service at a Unitarian Church (considered a Christian religion) and discovered that they accept all beliefs and embrace any spiritual theology. So I guess there are alot of people attending Church who don't believe in God.

Interesting how this thread has evolved...

Being a Christian is about a relationship...not a belief in God. Even Satan believes in God. That doesn't make him a Christian. Christians (true Christians, that is) have a relationship with God through his Son, Jesus. That is the only way we can have a relationship with God.

Unitarian churches are NOT considered Christian churches. Just because there is a church and a minister does not mean that the church and/or minister espouses Christian beliefs. My family once attended a highly-respected church in Miami. Many times, as I sat listening to the pastor, I knew he was not preaching sound doctrine. My mil caught some of it when she visited once.

For the record, I wish people a Merry Christmas. Not a "Happy Holiday" or anything else. I will not allow anyone in this world to tell me how to celebrate the birth of my Lord. I have no problem if someone tells me that they don't celebrate the holiday. I think it's discriminatory for retailers to tell their employees that they can't say what they want. It's just as discriminatory as not allowing a school to have a nativity (instead allowing Santa) in a Christmas program that celebrates cultural celebrations such as Kwanza and Hanukah. I've witnessed this and been saddened.

You know I adore you all, regardless of your beliefs. Just had to clarify stuff...

:muah: :hug:

GinnyG
11-14-2007, 04:56 PM
Ahhhhh, but you cannot have a "relationship" if you don't first have a belief EHH?

Interestingly many Unitarians would disagree with your statement that they are not Christian. I asked two people today, who attend and are members of the Unitarian Church, if they considered themselves "Christian" and both said yes!!!

I'm not a Unitarian or a Theologin so I don't know what the "official" stand is. But many years ago I did participate in a Unitarian youth group and those folks considered themselves "Christian". Of course it's all a matter of your own "theology", I've know Bpatist's that didn't feel that I (a Methodist) was "Christian".

I think it's always good to "dialoge" about these things as long as we can stay open minded and not judge someone because they don't share our own beliefs. Religion is one of those subjects that it is often difficult to do that with!

auburnchick
11-14-2007, 05:14 PM
How can you have a relationship with something if you don't believe it exists?????

As far as different denominations (Methodist, Baptist, etc.)...here's how I feel. It's not so much about the church traditions but it's about the heart. I grew up in a Baptist church. During the course of my marriage, I've belonged to Methodist and Presbyterian churches. One believes in "dunking," and the other believes in "sprinkling." Does that matter? No. What matters is if you've recognized yourself as a sinner who will stand before God -- who will judge the earth. The debt must be paid. Jesus paid that debt for me. Now, just because different churches do communion differently doesn't mean that they are wrong. We're called to celebrate communion...not told how to specifically do it. This is where human-ness comes into play. It's petty and judgemental, unless something is outright contrary to the Bible.

As far as the Unitarian church...don't get me started. There very well may be sincere Christians who attend them. It's not my place to judge. But their general theology is not sound.

Thanks for a cordial discussion. :hug:

SnarfyCat
11-14-2007, 07:40 PM
I love the fact that this has been discussed without animosity. I was brought up Lutheran et converted to Catholic because that was the church that I attended when I moved to a different state. I am a firm believer that it isn't what 'kind' of Christian I am that dictates where I go, but where I get my spiritual nurturing. I have also attended a Buddist 'service' with a friend before et found it very welcoming. I don't believe in labels in regards to my faith et attend services where I feel that my relationship with God, whatever his/her name may be, will grow. Thanks again for everyone's input. :muah:

Krystal
11-14-2007, 08:16 PM
i have to admit it.....
i started listening to it.....:hiding:

...i guess i still manage to have that excitement feeling i had the entire time i was growing up around this time of year. i don't shop in malls, so i never get overwhelmed with holiday shopping or commercialism. yes. i manage to live in a baking/knitting/online...

Me too. :D a local station takes a vote every October, and more than 60% of 10,000 votes wanted the music to start either On or Before November 1st. they are always #1 in the area for the month of November/December. It's pretty neat.

I also get that excited feeling like when I was a kid. There is something that is just so exciting and comfortable, about the Season for me. Like seeing a loved and missed family member for the first time after a year apart. I found in years when I was more depressed (Gr 12 and College) I looked forward to the Holidays more to give me that extra boost of joy I was missing. The past couple years I have been so generally happy and content I haven't "needed" the Holiday's like in the past, but I still wanted them.

It also seems to be the one time I can really manage to see alot of my family. With everyone grown up, and marrying off, it is getting harder to get together. With Holiday Parties and Dinners, we all get to see each other again, and it's always nice.

I do not practice any religion yet I celebrate christmas because I like to give presents.

I used to work retail and now i hate christmas music because that is all I heard.


hehe, I worked retail and I loved it... But I can see how normal people could become perhaps even slightly enraged because of it... :teehee:

I do not practice any religion myself, I was raised with a basic Christian Knowledge, (Jesus was a good guy, Mary was a virgin, God is Cool stuff, the basics I guess...) My parents were raised Catholic, but no longer practice and Christmas kinda spilled over... The principals are still the same tho... Be nice to each other, get together with friends and family and Celebrate Love, Goodwill, and Happiness.

I do not personally believe in a Christian God, and I take a page from Judaism in the fact that I do not think Jesus was the Son of God... but I cannot deny that "Jesus is the Reason for the Season..." ;) And it's a pretty great season in my books.

No one factually knows if any of it actually happened, but it does have historic merit in that ALOT of people truly do believe it happened and built entire countries and shaped the entire history of this Earth on those beliefs. This rings true for other religions/gods/deities too, which is why it is so very interesting a topic.

This has been a really interestic thread... It never ceases to amaze me how easily a simple topic of music, can transform into a topic of religion. :teehee:


PS. I already have my tree up. :)

scout52
11-14-2007, 08:28 PM
The statement Jesus is the reason for the Season is just wrong. It ignores that it is not the only reason. some things said in Jesus' name are just very unchristian. (not to offend the very nice Christian people here) and I think this statement is one of them.

See the Jesus is the reason for the Season upsets me because Hanukkah came first and i think Hanukkah is a pretty cool holiday myself and they give presents too. Besides Jesus celebrated Hanukkah because he was a Jewish. If there was no Judaism there would be no Christianity. So in actuality Judaism is the reason for the season. (my comparative religion teacher will be so proud and here she thought all i did was sleep in the back of her class and or make her students cry)

emmaknits
11-14-2007, 09:06 PM
I worked retail at a hobby lobby over 2 Christmas seasons.The only part that bothered me was putting up the trees at the end of July and starting everything else in August.Between work and school and having to put so much extra effort into straightening and being nice to grumpy customers, I wasn't as excited for Christmas those 2 years as I usually am.

This year, I heard Christmas music on Nov. 2, and I want to listen to it all the time, but I feel guilty because its so early!But I know that as soon as I get home from school this weekend I will pull out my c.d's and put them on my ipod and will listen to Christmas music until January.It always makes me smile, no matter how bad I feel!I am also the silly person who will randomly burst out in song, during hte year, and it is often a Christmas song!

scout52
11-14-2007, 09:13 PM
Goodness the hobby lobby puts up their Christmas stuff in JULY!!!!! that's the earliest EVER!!! who buys Christmas stuff in July??

I had never even heard of the hobby lobby until i had a business trip to Omaha which lasted for a month and a half. My lovely supervisor ( i love him) took me to the hobby lobby because the locals told me i could buy yarn and needles there. The trip was originally supposed to last three days so that hobby lobby saved my life. thank you hobby lobby in omaha.

GinnyG
11-14-2007, 09:20 PM
How can you have a relationship with something if you don't believe it exists?????

As far as the Unitarian church...don't get me started. There very well may be sincere Christians who attend them. It's not my place to judge. But their general theology is not sound.

Thanks for a cordial discussion. :hug:

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your previous post, When you said : "Being a Christian is about a relationship...not a belief in God. " I see now you ment you can believe in God without being a Christian!! Good point.

I'm not saying Unitarians are Christian, quite the opposite. Just a few weeks ago I went to a funeral at a Unitarian Church and was amazed that not a single prayer was said and Good's name was never mentioned. But it is interesting that many Unitarians profess to be Christian. To me it appeared to be more of ao "spiritual social" organization but I know little aobut their acual theology.

SnarfyCat, one of the most interesting books I ever read was a very slim volume entitled "Budda and Jesus as Brothers", very thought provoking. Can't remember for the life of me who wrote it. I live near Ithaca NY, there is a large Buddhist population here, the Dhali Lama was just here a couple weeks ago. I find it to be a very intriguing religion.

auburnchick
11-14-2007, 09:24 PM
You're talking about two totally different celebrations. Hanukah is a celebration of lights to commemorate God's provision of oil during a rededication of the temple.

Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus. One could link the two, I suppose, by stating that Jesus is God's provision for the sin penalty.

Here's the thing though. Without Christ, there is no Christmas. He is the reason for the season...how it was originally celebrated. Not Judaism. Mankind has added all of the extra stuff to the remembrance, just as Hanukah has grown from lighting candles to exchanging presents.

As a Christian, I owe my spiritual salvation to a Jew. I am so grateful. Judaism came first, but its purpose was to point the way to Jesus -- Messiah. Whether or not you believe Jesus was the Messiah...that's the choice every person has to make.

I find it unfortunate how Christians receive a bad reputation for the few that claim to do things in our name. You have to use common sense, though, and not make generalizations. That is an excuse to not investigating things for yourself to discover what YOU believe, as opposed to what other's believe.

As I said before, I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks for keeping it friendly!

:grphug:

auburnchick
11-14-2007, 09:28 PM
I'm not saying Unitarians are Christian, quite the opposite. Just a few weeks ago I went to a funeral at a Unitarian Church and was amazed that not a single prayer was said and Good's name was never mentioned. But it is interesting that many Unitarians profess to be Christian. To me it appeared to be more of ao "spiritual social" organization but I know little aobut their acual theology.


Bet you didn't see a cross anywhere either. People don't like to think that God is loving, but he is also full of anger. He is a a judge. The cross symbolizes that. He exacted a penalty for sin.

Interesting thoughts...

scout52
11-14-2007, 09:29 PM
So you all don't think i'm a heathen. here is a great play my Ethics teacher wrote. (at my catholic college) He believed in God by the way and considers himself Christian) The Class was the Problem of Evil and God. Its called the last 2 men in hell. Its one of the best books I have ever read which is saying something because the book is pro-Christian Its really funny and intriguing. He was one of the best teachers I have ever had in my life.

http://www.amazon.com/Ivan-Adolf-Last-Man-Hell/dp/0971374813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195089752&sr=8-1


and here is the book that Ginnyg was talking about i looked itup on amazon though never read it.

http://www.amazon.com/Going-Home-Jesus-Buddha-Brothers/dp/1573228303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195090067&sr=1-1

auburnchick
11-14-2007, 09:34 PM
Oh, I don't think you're a heathen!! :hug:

I strongly encourage y'all to click on my Way of the Master button in my signature. It is so fabulous. I head Kirk Cameron speak once, and, if I weren't already a Christian, there's no way I would have walked out not wanting to know how to become one. Things just make sense.

He and Ray Comfort go through a thing about if you think you're a good person. It's fabulous!

scout52
11-14-2007, 10:09 PM
Oh, I don't think you're a heathen!! :hug:


Aww thanks!!! :hug: :hug:

Krystal
11-14-2007, 10:15 PM
The statement Jesus is the reason for the Season is just wrong. It ignores that it is not the only reason. some things said in Jesus' name are just very unchristian. (not to offend the very nice Christian people here) and I think this statement is one of them.

See the Jesus is the reason for the Season upsets me because Hanukkah came first and i think Hanukkah is a pretty cool holiday myself and they give presents too. Besides Jesus celebrated Hanukkah because he was a Jewish. If there was no Judaism there would be no Christianity. So in actuality Judaism is the reason for the season. (my comparative religion teacher will be so proud and here she thought all i did was sleep in the back of her class and or make her students cry)

I did not intend to upset you with that statement, and am sorry you took offence, but I was referring to the Christmas season, which started because of the birth of Jesus. Aburnchick explained it pretty well.

Hannuka is pretty nifty too, I don't disagree there. A Jewish girl would always bring the celebration to my class every year, (with permission from all the parents, everyone who wanted to do something about their religion was welcome) She would bring in the traditional foods, and share her families traditions with us, and it was pretty cool. I always liked the idea of 8 days of gifts myself. :teehee:

You're talking about two totally different celebrations. Hanukah is a celebration of lights to commemorate God's provision of oil during a rededication of the temple.

Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus. One could link the two, I suppose, by stating that Jesus is God's provision for the sin penalty.

Here's the thing though. Without Christ, there is no Christmas. He is the reason for the season...how it was originally celebrated. Not Judaism. Mankind has added all of the extra stuff to the remembrance, just as Hanukah has grown from lighting candles to exchanging presents.

As a Christian, I owe my spiritual salvation to a Jew. I am so grateful. Judaism came first, but its purpose was to point the way to Jesus -- Messiah. Whether or not you believe Jesus was the Messiah...that's the choice every person has to make.

I find it unfortunate how Christians receive a bad reputation for the few that claim to do things in our name. You have to use common sense, though, and not make generalizations. That is an excuse to not investigating things for yourself to discover what YOU believe, as opposed to what other's believe.

As I said before, I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks for keeping it friendly!

:grphug:


Thank you for clairfying my message. :)

scout52
11-14-2007, 10:24 PM
Oh you didn't offend me Its the billboards that offend me. so no worries. Its just the saying itself. people always think California is SOO liberal. So i was suprised when I moved here to find out that San Diego was anything but.

San Diego is not because its a military town. So I am bombarded by SUPER RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVE (and at times racist because we are near the border) people and we are just surrounded by these signs and its so offensive. The synagogues here even got defaced. terrible (and ever since 9/11 so have the mosque)

I think that the United States is melting pot and everyone should be accepted so anything that feels like it excluding another group when Christmas is supposed to be a celebration is just so dumb.

Shouldn't they take this as an opportunity to gain more to thier flock instead of offending people? and every year it offends people but every year they bombard people with those stupid billboards instead of something that says Christmas wear Jesus was born to make in order to save you and bring you love and happiness. share that love. now doesn't that sound better?

auburnchick
11-14-2007, 11:01 PM
Scout, it's so funny how you talk about the irony of California.

I grew up in a very small town in Alabama...Baptist belt and all that. After I got married, my dh and I moved from Tallahassee (conservative too) to Miami. What a huge culture shock. We then moved up to Ft. Lauderdale (Coral Springs, to be exact). There is a very large Jewish population down there...not anything like what I was used to before.

When we moved back up to north Florida, I was very excited. As we looked at homes, I noticed all of the crosses and Bible sayings in people's homes. I thought to myself...finally...home...where being a Christian is the norm. We've lived here for five years, and I'm actually very disappointed. There are so many lost people here. Talking to people who maybe attend church is so eye-opening. People talk very loosely about Christian things, but they still aren't getting it.

God and Jesus aren't only about love. They bring a two-edged sword. The other side of love is anger. God is mad about the sin in this world, and as judge, He will have to punish us for that sin. Sure, Christmas is a feel-good time. We celebrate the birth of a baby. But we forget that the baby grew up to be a man who got mad in the temple when people were cheating others, and then he later suffered for us on the cross.

Oh well, I digress. I'm sorry that you are offended by billboards. I have to say that I would not be offended if I saw billboards for Kwanza or Hanukah. Yeah, I know people don't put them up, but if they did, it would be okay. This country, though, was founded on Christian principles...despite what many would say to that. It's nice that we live in a country where we can have billboards that proclaim this holiday. There are many in the world who don't have such a luxury.

scout52
11-14-2007, 11:59 PM
But see Merry Christmas doesn't offend me, neither does live nativity scenes. The traditional Christmas things to do not offend. its the notion that other reasons to celebrate during this holiday seasons is offensive. and that is what that sign is conveying.

I'm interested in your version (or belief) of God since I took comparative religion. (a requirement of Catholic school) So Do you believe in a vengeful god? that a more First Testament God not the New Testament God, very interesting. The New Testament God was more loving and forgiving hence Jesus, God forgave us for our sins. I grew up with the belief that yes we are all born sinners but Jesus died for our sins and we were cleansed when we were baptized. If we did not commit any of the seven deadly sins we would go to heaven. We had to confess our sins weekly and then we would be forgiven our daily trespasses.

Could you please go into more detail?

Jitendra
11-15-2007, 12:14 AM
I hate to be a GRINCH but I have declared my area a "Christmas Free" zone. I live in an area where there is a great deal of cultural diversity and not everyone is Christian. I think it is inconsiderate of those who do not celebrate the holiday to start so early and have so much.

You are SO right, and possibly no one feels the pain of this as much as half of me does. I mean, half of me gets totally into the spirit of christmas and gets all excited, prancing around and generally making a fool of half of myself. Because I AM cultural diversity, the other half of me makes some tea and watches the whole debacle unfold with lofty, unshakable contempt.

auburnchick
11-15-2007, 12:21 AM
I do believe in the vengeful God of the Old Testament. God had to establish His people, but first He had to establish His relationship with them. That's why he made them sacrifice the innocent lamb. He demands obedience. So, when Lot's wife turned back to look at Sodom (or Gomorrah), she disobeyed and turned into the pillar of salt. Time and time again, God's people disobeyed, and He had to bring them back into line...to set them apart as different.

God is the same, through time, though. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. God, in the OT, was also very loving. Despite the fact that Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, and He threw them out of the Garden of Eden, He was still compassionate enough to provide clothing for them. He opened her womb and allowed her to conceive. God rewarded Abraham and Sarah's faith by blessing them with a child, Isaac, despite the fact that they were quite advanced in years. God spared Isaac from Abraham's knife when Abraham showed himself willing to obey God.

In the New Testamant, God shows his vengeful and compassionate sides as well. Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven. If you read Revelation, you'll read about a vengeful God. Yet, he showed His compassion by sending his Son to die for us.

Parents discipline their children because they love them. As parents, we show our tough side, but we also show compassion. I obey the speed limit because I fear the law, not because I love police officers. I know that the police officer has my best interest at heart, which is why he's going to give me that speeding ticket if I break the law. That's the same way that God operates.

We should be afraid of what we will face when we meet God. I know that I am not a good person. I have many thoughts and do many things that I am not proud of. I praise God that He provided a way for me to face Him, though. Jesus paid the price for me. He went to jail (hell) in my place. This fear that I have has allowed me to see my need for the Savior. Once I acknowledged my failings and accepted God's gift, I became free...free to love Him and serve him. I want to do right (well, most of the time). So the two go hand-in-hand.

I hope I'm making sense.

auburnchick
11-15-2007, 12:42 AM
Here's the way that Way of the Master approaches your question Scout.

Ask yourself this question: Do you think you are a good person?

Most people would say yes.

Now ask yourself the following questions:

Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen anything?
Have you have looked lustfully at another person?

Most people would answer yes to one or all of those questions. In doing so, you've admitted that you're a lying, thieving adulterer (adultery is when you look at someone who doesn't belong to you with longing in your heart and if you're not married to that person, they don't belong to you).

In effect, you've broken three of the ten commandments (Thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not steal, and thou shalt not commit adultery -- book of Deuteronomy, Old Testament), thus far.

Now, God is the judge. You stand before Him at the end of your life and have to answer to whether you've broken His laws (the commandments). You've already answered yes (above). A judge must sentence you. The penalty, according to God, is death. You're guilty. You will have to pay the price.

Now, suppose that someone walks in and says, "I'll pay his fine." Wouldn't you be happy to accept that person's offer? You recognize that you need help, and you can't do it on your own. That's where Jesus' work on the cross comes in.

God is judging, but He's also merciful. He provided a way. But we first must recognize our need for Him before we can accept His offer of salvation.

It's hard to argue with this logic, in my opinion.

:hug:

scout52
11-15-2007, 12:59 AM
Thank you for clarifying your beliefs. though i no longer practice Catholicism or any other religion. I enjoy studying them all. Many people believe that i gave up without really knowing why but I'm a researcher so i throughly researched first and continue. I have enjoyed the discussions with you.

auburnchick
11-15-2007, 01:42 AM
I think that people try too hard to find answers in a book. This is not something that you seek out that way. It's through a heart-awareness. The Bible teaches us how to live, but it's our souls that commune with God. That's where the answers are.

:hug:

GinnyG
11-15-2007, 07:02 AM
and here is the book that Ginnyg was talking about i looked itup on amazon though never read it.

http://www.amazon.com/Going-Home-Jesus-Buddha-Brothers/dp/1573228303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195090067&sr=1-1

THANY YOU for posting that link!!!!! I "laoned" my copy and never got it back, would love to have another~!!!!!

scout52
11-15-2007, 02:22 PM
You are very welcome GinnyG :hug:

Sandi
11-15-2007, 08:05 PM
I think the original post here was about "Christmas Music" and thats it. Nothing to do with religion or being PC.

auburnchick
11-15-2007, 08:35 PM
Hey...we're women! We're famous for geting off topic!

:teehee:

scout52
11-15-2007, 09:18 PM
:) that we are. and all the off topics were great discussions as well. i enjoyed them all. not many places can you actually have a friendly discussion regarding topics many people are too afraid to talk about. I really enjoyed it. so i thank everyone who participated. big :grphug: and :muah:

and Merry Christmas Happy Hanukkah Happy Kwanzaa Seasons Greetings. Joy to the world Happy Holidays and if i could i'd actually put my favorite xmas song the only one i can listen to play Winter Wonderland By Annie Lennox to play whenever someone read my post

GinnyG
11-16-2007, 01:05 PM
I think the original post here was about "Christmas Music" and thats it. Nothing to do with religion or being PC.
Is that a problem?:??

Sandi
11-17-2007, 02:39 PM
Not a problem. Just a different topic. That's all I was pointing out.

auburnchick
11-17-2007, 05:25 PM
Not a problem. Just a different topic. That's all I was pointing out.

:hug:

Mommy22alyns
11-17-2007, 06:30 PM
Really?? I have never seen such things. Of course for me, it's finding the rudest, b!tchiest, crabbiest, most horrible sales people. I've worked in retail, but not dept store retail, so I know how it can be, but all I seem to find are mean sales people. :shrug:

Where on earth do you folks live?? That's terrible that those people treated you that way. I'm very sorry to hear that.

Oh, I definitely don't deny there are some awful retail workers out there... but I think a lot of them are also jaded and sick to death of being underpaid, overworked, and flat out not appreciated at all. People can get downright mean. I actually had a customer threaten to kill me. Over a dollar coin.
Something about malls seems to bring out the worst. I worked several years between Blockbuster Music, Borders, and Waldenbooks. My last few years, in a mall, were absolutely the worst. :sad:
On the off-off-topic... what an amazing conversation on religion! I think it's the most civil one I've ever seen on the internet! :teehee:

GinnyG
11-17-2007, 06:49 PM
That would be why I do ALL my Christmas shopping on the internet. EVERY BIT OF IT. I don't set a foot in a store from the first of November til after the holidays. It also helps me control "impulse" buying, I make a list, find it, buy it, and I'm done.