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Crycket
04-26-2010, 10:15 PM
Some of you may remember, I had started a thread probably about a year ago or more now in the Off Topic section....

It was about how a friend of mine was laying on the pressure to go to her wedding that would be taking place on a cruise.

I had said back then that I really don't want to go, it is expensive, I don't want to have to take a plane and it is a vacation...not just a one or two day wedding event. It is a full week + extra.

The conclusion at the time was that after many frustraited feelings, we talked it out and basically it is too expensive. This was truely the best thing to say as my other phobias were just coming off as me being insensitive and bitchy.

The case has been reopened. She is done with her chemo (for those just tuning in or having forgot, she was going through breast cancer treatments at the time this whole thing started) and has now planned a date for the wedding. It is going to be the beginning of March, next year. She has planned it to leave from Florida, so if I don't want to take a plane, we can drive down, and instead of the $2000 a person price tag, she says with the package that she has arranged, the low end price will be approx $800 a night, per person. Well...that significantly drops the original price from what would have been about $5000 for DH and I to go, to about $3000 (driving/motel expenses driving down, etc. + the $1600 what I am guessing is a US price...and other expenses)

I was talking to her about it all again tonight, hoping it had all be finalized as a "I can't afford it" deal in the first place...that it wouldn't be a sore point still...

So...she says this to me "There have been people who have had weddings in shorter time, that people have been able to come up with the money for such a trip" and the follow up "everybody needs a vacation" Basically saying that putting aside enough for a coffee a day would allow me to go, and that she has gone to the trouble of finding a cruise that leaves from somewhere I could drive to rather than fly.

Ok...the money is a little more reasonable...but it is DHs whole vacation time. I am also not working steadily making the money thing a little more difficult.

*sigh* I was hoping this issue was over and done with. I was hoping that this wouldn't be an issue....

I had said to her "but you are still putting the wedding at a distance, not everyone will be able to go" to which her answer was, "those who want to will come, those who don't, won't." I said, it isn't a matter of want or not, it might be a money issue, to which she responded with the above comments about how little it costs...and how much everyone needs a vacation...

Why can't it just be easy...am I being a horrible jerk for not wanting to go? Why am I even having to go through this again for a second time?

Maybe I should just go....

Gertie
04-26-2010, 10:36 PM
>Maybe I should just go....<

No!! Sorry to say this since she's your friend, but she's being narrow minded & selfish. It seems that she's used to people giving in to her wishes. If you can't go then you can wish her well & look forward to seeing her pics when they return.

etoilechaude
04-26-2010, 11:00 PM
>Maybe I should just go....<

No!! Sorry to say this since she's your friend, but she's being narrow minded & selfish. It seems that she's used to people giving in to her wishes. If you can't go then you can wish her well & look forward to seeing her pics when they return.

Agreed.

lissaplus2
04-26-2010, 11:23 PM
>Maybe I should just go....<

No!! Sorry to say this since she's your friend, but she's being narrow minded & selfish. It seems that she's used to people giving in to her wishes. If you can't go then you can wish her well & look forward to seeing her pics when they return.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Maybe you could make her a little something to wear in the wedding...perhaps....a shawl?? I hear theres a really pretty one being tested right now...:roflhard:

Crycket
04-27-2010, 12:08 AM
Oh there are already plans for a shawl...and I was going to make her a cross stitch with the wedding date on it....

I guess i am just really easily guilt tripped...

GinnyG
04-27-2010, 07:24 AM
My advice this year is the same as my advice last year (if I remember correctly);

Thank her for the invitation, express your joy at her wedding but tell her FIRMLY you are unable to attend AND DON"T FEEL GUILTY.

lissaplus2
04-27-2010, 07:41 AM
Thank her for the invitation, express your joy at her wedding but tell her FIRMLY you are unable to attend AND DON"T FEEL GUILTY.
This too!!

trvvn5
04-27-2010, 08:36 AM
I find this to be one of the most aggravating things from people. I understand that she wants to have a destination wedding. That's great, but SHE is the one who wants the destination wedding. Its so presumptuous and selfish to guilt people into taking their entire vacation and using it for their wedding. Plus, I get that 3k is less than 5k, but who could pull 3k out of their butt too. Thats a lot of money to spend to be a guest at someone else's wedding. I had a friend do a destination wedding to Jamaica and was angry when 3/4 of her guest list wouldn't come.

I would be honest. It's too much money. It's wasting a week of your vacation to be trapped on a boat. It's selfish of her to expect people to do that for her wedding. And just firmly say no.

Jannette
04-27-2010, 09:01 AM
I agree with everyone else, just say no. I think it's ridiculously expensive to have to pay $3000 to attend a wedding. I wouldn't do it for anyone. There, now try not to feel guilty!

Sunshine's Mom
04-27-2010, 09:23 AM
Didn't she want you in the wedding party? Her matron of honor?

In any event, if you really don't want to go, I think you need to tell her straight out that you simply cannot afford it. If you were independently wealthy it would be different. But, you are just not in a position to spend that kind of money. Period. You can't get blood from a stone.

It seems that maybe she re-planned this trip to accomodate your phobias about flying, etc, because she really wants you to be a part of her day. That is a bit guilt-trippy for sure, but you have to be honest with her. But I think I would stick to the lack of funds being the issue rather than that you don't want to "waste" your vacation time being with her on her wedding day. That seems a bit harsh to me and possibly a way to end a friendship that you didn't mean to do.

Frankly, though, so many of us don't really do something great on our vacations that I think an opportunity to have a marathon drive ending in a cruise would be kind of fun. Don't let your fears keep you from experiencing something that could be wonderful. Is it really a money issue or your fear of the unknown and being out of your comfort zone? And the best time to push your boundaries is when you are doing so for a loved one.

Crycket
04-27-2010, 09:45 AM
Didn't she want you in the wedding party? Her matron of honor?

Yes...she did...I think that might have changed though, which is where I get a bit more guilted.




Frankly, though, so many of us don't really do something great on our vacations that I think an opportunity to have a marathon drive ending in a cruise would be kind of fun. Don't let your fears keep you from experiencing something that could be wonderful. Is it really a money issue or your fear of the unknown and being out of your comfort zone? And the best time to push your boundaries is when you are doing so for a loved one.

I do somewhat agree that it could be fun to go down to Florida, driving it could be ok too. I know we did it when I was a kid once or twice. It might be nice to see it as an adult. It does make it a two week vacation rather than a 1 week, and probably does make it more expensive. The cheapest room on the ship was about $800 a night per person....making it about $1600 (I am going to assume US) Driving down is gas, motel and food. I believe it is around a 20 or so hour drive, and neither hubby or I are willing to drive non stop. So lets say 3 days 2 nights. It would also be a consideration to rent a car, as I am not sure I want to put that kinda milage on to my car. That is where I figure the extra $1400...not to mention hair and dress, tips and alcohol on the cruise. perhaps travel insurance etc.

I DO really want to be there for her day. I am really annoyed that she can't seem to separate my support from my being there. To her they are one in the same! This makes me feel really bad...
Yes...it is out of my comfort zone. Neither DH or I want a vacation of this kind. DH gets sea sick. I have other issues...but I could put them aside. The money is a bit tight. I am a little bit put off at the fact that she seems to think that $3000 is a cup of coffee from now until March...DH worked it out...it is more like $10 a day...that is more like 6-10 cups of coffees worth of money a day.

I am also annoyed that she is using the "everyone needs a vacation" line, and that she thinks it is ok to pull people (specifically me) out for a week or two for a wedding.

The last wedding I went to was for someone I have known since kindergarden and I didn't even go to the wedding ceremony as the time difference between the ceremony and the reception was 4 or 5 hours. The wedding was about 1.5 hours away from home, and we decided it was not really worth it to hang around for that time in our dress clothes with no where to go. That and a $40 gift, it was all good! Heck, even my BFFs wedding was neat and easy, I did a small scrapbook album for her with photos I took at her wedding at a cost of about $200 (after photo processing of like hundreds of pics, where was digital then huh?) She loved that more because she had photos that were more candid and not in her photographers rolls.

Either way...her bottom line seems to be, either you WANT to be there or you don't. Money won't stop you when you have 10 months to save up. I say it is too much to expect for a wedding, and truely I hope the friendship isn't done after this, though I already feel it is strained.

MMario
04-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Tell her flat out "NO". VERY unreasonable of her to expect someone to take a week out of their life for this. Personally - I think the woman needs a MAJOR reality check.

Crycket
04-27-2010, 11:20 AM
I have been trying to boil this down to the bottom line. I am trying to clear the bull and supposed "excuses" (as some without anxiety see it) To be completely honest with myself...

I think this is it....

I DO very much support her, and DO very much want to be there for her special moment/day.

I DO NOT want to take a vacation on a cruise. I DO NOT want pass go and spend $3000 on a wedding/unwanted vacation.

I think that is cut and dry. Without any additional feelings in the way.

The next question is, does a friend do something they don't want to do, just for the sake of a friends happiness. Do I sacrifice/put off some of the things I need/want to do to make her happy?

What makes me a real friend? Just because she is being unreasonable, does that give me the right to be unreasonable back? Is she really being unreasonable?

See...this is the sort of thing that goes flying through my mind.

trvvn5
04-27-2010, 11:35 AM
I have been trying to boil this down to the bottom line. I am trying to clear the bull and supposed "excuses" (as some without anxiety see it) To be completely honest with myself...

I think this is it....

I DO very much support her, and DO very much want to be there for her special moment/day.

I DO NOT want to take a vacation on a cruise. I DO NOT want pass go and spend $3000 on a wedding/unwanted vacation.

I think that is cut and dry. Without any additional feelings in the way.

The next question is, does a friend do something they don't want to do, just for the sake of a friends happiness. Do I sacrifice/put off some of the things I need/want to do to make her happy?

What makes me a real friend? Just because she is being unreasonable, does that give me the right to be unreasonable back? Is she really being unreasonable?

See...this is the sort of thing that goes flying through my mind.

She is absolutely being unreasonable. Imagine if you asked every single guest to your wedding with your husband to spend $3000 on your wedding.

I am sure that you want to be supportive, but what she's requesting is outrageous. Now. Had she spent the money and was paying for everyones' rooms and airfare and this was just a matter of taking vacation time for a wedding I might be able to see that. And its not even like this is a destination wedding that you can get away from. Its not like going to Jamaica for a beach wedding that you can go down for a couple days and come home. This is a week long cruise with no means to get back home if you need to. You're trapped on this wedding for a long as the cruise lasts, plus the flight home.

I think you should stop feeling guilty over not wanting to go. I think the bride is being outlandishly unreasonable.

catlvr
04-27-2010, 11:41 AM
This is a friend??!! She sounds selfish and self absorbed to me. I'd run for the hills, away from her and her wedding!!

Lisa R.
04-27-2010, 11:51 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if I'm repeating.

We had a big family "to-do" because of dh's cousin getting married and doing the cruise thing. We have 9 children, aren't that close to this cousin, and still the family thought we (and others) were insensitive and uncaring for not going to this wedding when everyone made the effort to go to other people's (local, one afternoon, traditional church) weddings.

The bottom line was, while we were happy for the couple, our family's financial and emotional welfare had to come first. What vacation time we had needed to be for us to relax, not for us to be all concerned about wedding events and etiquette, etc. at huge expense to us.

Every once in a while, we still hear some comment, but rarely. Too bad.

You do what you need to do. If you have the extra money and think it would be worth sacrificing that for your friend, then by all means do...but if you don't want to make that particular sacrifice, then by all means, don't---and don't feel guilty.

Traditionally, going to someone's wedding involves an afternoon of your life and a small gift. Not expenditures of thousands of dollars and a week of your time. IMHO, that's really asking a lot. No guilt for declining.

Jan in CA
04-27-2010, 01:55 PM
Would she go on an unwanted, expensive (still) week+ long trip spending a week on a ship with a seasick husband? I'm guessing she would beg off.

It sounds like you're her friend as long as you do what she wants...kind of a like a 2nd grader. It's time for her to leave the schoolyard tactics behind and grow up. Tell her one more time that you do support her, but you just can't go and you don't wish to discuss this anymore. Either she'll accept and forgive you for what she sees as a slight or she won't. If she doesn't do you really need a friend like that?

N0obKnitter
04-27-2010, 02:41 PM
You can't afford it and you don't wanna so don't feel guilty! I wouldn't be able to cough up $3000 either! That's why it's an *invitation,* not an order. You are allowed to decline.

Going to weddings brings up all kinds of bad/sad feelings for me so I've declared a moratorium on attending any weddings for the next 4 years (last one I went to was over a year ago.) This means if I get invited to a wedding I will decline for my own sanity, cost etc doesn't even factor into it.

kellyh57
04-27-2010, 02:54 PM
The only people I've known who do destination weddings do them because they don't want to deal with all the guests and family crap that goes on. (Divorced parents having to be civil, in-laws mad because other family's decisions, who gets to be closer, sit where, etc.) They pick 2 good friends that really want to go and witness and that's it. They only have to be there for a day and it's their decision if they want to stay longer or not. I've never known anyone to do a destination wedding and expect everyone to come along for the ride to the tune of thousands of dollars of their own expense! Why don't you suggest to host a nice reception back home for all of the family and friends who won't be able to come along. (Talk about lack of privacy- bringing your whole wedding party along for your honeymoon-YUCK!) Most destination weddings (or Las Vegas, quickie weddings, at bride's hometown far away, etc.) do a reception back home for those who can't travel that want to wish the couple well. Watch a video of the wedding, dress up all pretty and have some food and fun celebrating with them for one day instead of a week!

Crycket
04-27-2010, 04:48 PM
Yes...I actually have suggested that. It is the same "But I really want you there" routine. And that tune has changed from that to the "if you WANT to come, you will, if you don't, you won't" attitude. So going from hopeful enthusiasm to guilt trip.

I intend to be the one that throws her shower, and goes shopping for her dress and all that fun stuff. Apparently being there is the most important thing for her...

You are right Kellyh57...I think she is totally doing it to avoid the big family thing. Unfortunately for me, I am one of those 2 good friends she wants to take with....*rolls her eyes*

Lighting57
04-27-2010, 05:27 PM
I agree with all of the above. Not to mention, that if I am going to shell out that kind of cash for that kind of trip, it will be to some place I and my husband want to go and to do things we want to do. Not to tag along and do as some self-centered person wishes us to do.

Not everyone is wealthy. Nor does everyone freely rack up debt on credit cards. We live debt free in that if we can't pay cash for it, we do without it. Believe me, we have done without a LOT in our 35 years, but atleast we can sleep at night without having to worry about a debt collector.

Lighting57
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
I well remember that as I was growing up the brides parents paid for the wedding. This also included all of the dresses, shoes, hair, everything for all of the attendents and ushers. Not to mention food, and the whole nine yards.

If she wishes for you to be in the wedding party, tell her you'll try to set aside that week if she's sure she can afford your tickets, etc. When she looks at you like you're crazy, remind her of this old tradition. She'll probably start to back peddle.

Sknitter56
04-27-2010, 07:13 PM
There's an old saying: "With friends like this, who needs enemies?" It seems very selfish of her to ask everyone to shell out their hard-earned money and saved up vacation time to accomodate her destination wedding. I say stay home with your hubby, who you'll be living with for the rest of your life (hopefully), take a nice vacation with him, and if she gets her panties all in a wad, so be it. If she gets mad, she's not much of a friend, IMHO.

Sunshine's Mom
04-28-2010, 09:54 AM
Crycket, you've made some really good points. I think you need to tell her that you're feeling guilt-tripped by her and it's not fair. Although she's very important to you, your loyalties and considerations must be with your own family, that being your husband and yourself. You are saving for your future and $3,000 is too much money for you. That's like asking each person to pay for an entire wedding themselves (my reception cost $5,000). Offer to throw her a party at your home when she returns for all those who couldn't go. I'll bet it's more people than she's willing to admit.

Stress that it's not a question of "if you WANT to come, you will, if you don't, you won't". It's not that simple to you and she's making it sound like you're a terrible person. You WANT to go, but simply CAN'T for monetary reasons. It's unfair of her to ask you to overextend yourself and then to become mad about it.

I like the suggestion of Lighting57: "If she wishes for you to be in the wedding party, tell her you'll try to set aside that week if she's sure she can afford your tickets, etc. When she looks at you like you're crazy, remind her of this old tradition. She'll probably start to back peddle."

That's good stuff.

Crycket
04-28-2010, 10:33 AM
She did offer to pay the flight back when the plans were up in the air. But I did tell her at the time that DH really wasn't willing to pay more that (I think) $1000 for the both of us at the time. She said at the time that there would be no way we could go on that either way.

Again...it got dropped at the time...but now that she believes she has made all these consessions for me...that I should go.

The problem with all this reasonable talk is you need to be talking to a reasonable person.

I do understand too that if she isn't going to understand, then she isn't worth my time. However, we all have those ppl in your life, that although they drive you up the wall and around the bend, it would be really hard to just write them off. Trust me, I have thought about it many times. She does have her redeeming qualities, she just seems to have alot of "isms".

Her "isms" tend to affect many ppl, not just rub one or two the wrong way...unfortunately.

I do feel for her. She doesn't ask a lot of me, and this is REALLY important and special to her. I would be lying if I didn't say I shared her feelings. I am really thrilled for her.

We had a moment when she said "well, if we didn't have it on a cruise, we would have it in Edmonton, and you wouldn't come to that either, cause you have to fly..."
I told her that Edmonton (from Ontario) would be significantly more reasonable, as we could get there by train, and stay a day or two, and potentially even stay with a few of DHs relatives. It kinda quelled her feelings that I didn't want to go to her wedding. However, it seems she has selective hearing, and only retains what she wants to think, which is to say that I don't want to be at her wedding, as she refuses to have it anywhere but on a cruise. I told her that she is intitled to have any wedding she wants, but I can't go on a cruise.

I said I would go dress shopping with her...be at, if not throw her shower, and be at any reception she decided to have at home.

*grr*

Yeah....my whole wedding cost somewhere in the ball park of $5000, with approx 60 guests. Given it was nothing fancy, but still...she wants me to spend almost as much going to her wedding. She has to hear no, but she only hears "I don't want to"

I am really happy that I have all of you for support. This is one of those "lose sleep over" deals.

Crycket
04-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Ok...so I just had a big heart to heart with her mother. Who is also apposed to the going away thing.

We didn't fix anything of course, but I was able to address concerns and stuff.

It made me feel a bit bad too, cause apparently her Fiancee has tons of family coming out, but they are used to taking huge vacations and such. She has her parents coming...and that is it. The only other person she is really dying to have stand up for her is me.

Her mother said she told her that she was willing to stand in for her.

I feel kinda bad now too cause she is apparently feeling more alone than ever, her grandparents are not likely going, very few of her relatives will be going....and although she was aiming for that really small wedding...she won't be able to have the people she wants there...

This is her descision...of course, and it will be her bed to lie in if no one goes...

Her mom said that she is waffling on the idea, and may decide on something else.

(for the record, I am friends with her mom independantly of my friendship with her, yes there is still some bias there, but we can usually talk pretty openingly together)

She may not too...she has put a deposit down on this trip, and stands to lose money if she backs out.

I feel a little less harsh about it, her mom kept pointing out that I am her only really close friend, which did make it a bit more difficult, because I know it is true!

*sigh* this just can't be easy.

In the end, she said to have a heart to heart, face to face and see if we can work it out. She also said there might be hurt feelings, but that is the way it has to be. If the friendship is capable of surviving, then it will....

Hard decisions ahead....I don't envy me right now....

melmac51
04-28-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't envy you right now either, but you can only do what you can do. And, it won't be YOUR fault if no one but her parents are there on her side of the family. Is her mother (perhaps) throwing a little guilt your way too?

My heart goes out to you.

newamy
04-28-2010, 02:54 PM
Aside from the cost and travel for you I see this whole plan as a very unrealistic beginning to a marriage. Can she and her future husband afford all this? Or is it getting paid by credit cared (debt)? More debt is not a good way to begin married life. Weddings should not be overly expensive in my opinion. A good marriage begins on the solid foundation of the relationship not with an expensive and extravagant wedding.

Sunshine's Mom
04-28-2010, 03:03 PM
Why doesn't she use the cruise as their honeymoon? She doesn't have to lose any money on the deal. If he's cool with his family being on his honeymoon, then let them go on vacation together.

If her entire family is not willing to go on this trip then why wouldn't she just have a nice, small ceremony here with everyone, then say her vows again on the cruise? Frankly, this seems like SHE'S the one being pressured by her soon-to-be family to do this. It's "keeping up with the Jones's" stuff. I kind of feel bad for her and think she should put her foot down with her fiancee. There might be something going on that you aren't aware of. Is this really her idea?

I know that even if my dream wedding would have been a destination situation, if MY family and friends weren't into it, I'd do something else and arrange to retake our vows at the destination. Maybe a few of our good friends would want to go with us. But, I wouldn't be pitching a hissy-fit thinking everyone has to do what I want. It's too much to ask of people.

Crycket, I'd be encouraged by what her mom said and try to make her understand what is REALLY important about weddings - becoming one with that other person and sharing that with the people that mean the most to you. It's not about WHERE you're doing it, it's about WHAT is happening. Try to convince her of your way of thinking. And, if all else fails, give her the 2 wedding scenario and pump up the joy of getting to wear your wedding gown twice!!! Who gets to do that?

Sunshine's Mom
04-28-2010, 03:10 PM
Aside from the cost and travel for you I see this whole plan as a very unrealistic beginning to a marriage. Can she and her future husband afford all this? Or is it getting paid by credit cared (debt)? More debt is not a good way to begin married life. Weddings should not be overly expensive in my opinion. A good marriage begins on the solid foundation of the relationship not with an expensive and extravagant wedding.

I wish we had an "agree" button like on Ravelry.

Crycket
04-28-2010, 03:21 PM
Why doesn't she use the cruise as their honeymoon? She doesn't have to lose any money on the deal. If he's cool with his family being on his honeymoon, then let them go on vacation together.





LOL we talked about that! Her mom apparently pushed for it too! She is of the same mind...actually she even said "a girl gets married at home" Which was more about her getting married here in Toronto, rather than in Edmonton where all his family are from.

From my knowledge I think his family is covering their expense, So I am not sure that they have to worry about debt. I could be wrong, I really didn't ask.

@melmac51 - there is absolutely no guilt coming from her mother. She wants her daughter to have what ever she wants, but more so because of all the drama with the cancer. I think she is extra relieved that she is around to have a wedding in the first place. But she has pushed for everything but a wedding away, as it does really cut out the family aspect.

I found out the fast way that a wedding is not at all about the Bride, it is about everyone else! Especially family. The grandparents just want to see their grandkids married, and families have all sorts of reason to go, even if for some of them it is to just sit back and gossip but really...

Again...it is her day and she is intitled to have it any way she likes, but I know it is making it hard for me, and her mom was telling me it is causing a bit of a stir amongst relatives. I guess in the end, it really has to be about the bride and groom....but for me, it was more about trying to be a "good girl" amongst my relatives, especially since my sister disowned the large half of my family. Family my have its ups and downs, but I certainly feel more comfortable with them having my back.

To each their own. I wish it didn't have to feel like such a rock and a hard place.

I am having lunch with her on Monday..so maybe we can hash things out a bit. Even if it ends badly...maybe I can get some sleep!

Crycket
04-30-2010, 12:43 PM
Thank you very much to newamy who sent me this link

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/04/30/destination.weddings.dilemma/index.html?hpt=C2

I am not sure it has settled me stomach to much, but it certainly made me feel a little bit more at ease with my feelings...

Jan in CA
04-30-2010, 01:44 PM
That was an interesting article. Not really a surprise though. ;)

Last year my DD1, who lives in Wash. DC, was invited to go to her best from HS wedding in Hawaii. The bride was kind enough to tell her that while she'd love to have her there she'd completely understand if she couldn't make it. That's a true best friend.

knitcindy
04-30-2010, 03:07 PM
I would tell her that you would be HAPPY to have a hometown reception for them when they got back. She could wear her dress, have a cake, open presents, the whole 9 yards!!!

While she has reduced the costs, it sounds like she hasn't been hearing you at all. Would your husband be willing for you to put the "blame" all on him?? Would that take any guilt off you?

If she keeps calling and bugging you about it - even after you've explained.....I would buy an answering machine/caller ID, install it and then SCREEN YOUR CALLS!!!!!!!!! Don't pick up when you know it's her! Hopefully she'll get the idea.

HTH, knitcindy

Jannette
04-30-2010, 03:08 PM
I agree with Jan. A true best friend is one who is understanding.

Puddinpop
05-01-2010, 07:59 PM
When most people are up to their eyeballs in debt right now, I can't believe she expects you to do this. Even at the thousand dollars for the both of you, I would have to put it on a c.c. and that is ridiculous. Who wants to be more in debt with the economy like it is now?

AngelaR
05-02-2010, 10:58 AM
I'm sorry to say this Crycket, but your friend sounds incredibly selfish and self-centered to me. I understand that some of that has to do with the illness she's been enduring, but to expect people to A) use their vacation time and dollars for this wedding, B) be stuck on a cruise with a bunch of other people while the newlyweds indulge in each other, and C) accuse other people of not caring and of being selfish when her demands are unreasonable is going beyond the pale of what is acceptable for friends.

I would not want to accompany any couple on their honeymoon, especially if I had any sort of phobia about that sort of thing and her insisting, knowing this, is unreasonable.

Send a gift and let it go. She's the one who is not being "friendly".

Crycket
05-02-2010, 11:01 AM
Well..I am seeing her tommorow (stay tuned) and I was hoping to put it to her this way...

"You see it as spending $2-$3000 on a vacation, I see it as spending $2-$3000 on a wedding" I want to see where she takes it from there...

Gertie
05-02-2010, 03:33 PM
"You see it as spending $2-$3000 on a vacation, I see it as spending $2-$3000 on a wedding" I want to see where she takes it from there...

I'm sorry that I sound kinda hateful here, but IMO that agrument will do no good. She sees only what/how she wants to see. If she could be convinced or be made to stand down, it would have happened by now. You can not change her selfish, narrow-minded ways. I still think that she's used to other's bending to her will. She will say/do whatever it takes to control you. You seem to have a tender heart. I believe that she's willing to hurt you with the guilt weapon. Bad combination. Go to your meeting with that knowledge. You know that you are right. Period. Stand your ground. No guilt.

You can't control her, but you can control you. Love, civility, standing your ground with a calm even voice will be yours.

Let us know how it goes.

We love you & want what is best (in our opinion) for you.

Edit: I've had to dissolve friendships before. It was a bit hard, but they were bad for me. It didn't take long for me to recover & recover I did. You can too.

KathleenG
05-02-2010, 04:22 PM
>Maybe I should just go....<

No!! Sorry to say this since she's your friend, but she's being narrow minded & selfish. It seems that she's used to people giving in to her wishes. If you can't go then you can wish her well & look forward to seeing her pics when they return.

BINGO! Perfectly stated!

DO NOT . . .REPEAT . . DO NOT be emotionally blackmailed into giving in -to doing something you do not want to do, nor that your husband does not want to do, nor what you cannot afford to do.
End of discussion.

Crycket
05-02-2010, 06:50 PM
LOL....yes...I know...

It can be tough being a non confrontational person sometimes. Wait, that isn't true either. I do stand up for what I believe...

Heck! I have stood up for myself here, before too! I don't understand why she is still beating this dead horse.

I suppose that is really it. Either I am being a bad friend for not going, or she is being a bad friend for not being understandable.

And Gertie, I do not think you were being hateful. It seems this topic is full of fuel no matter how you look at it!

Gertie
05-02-2010, 08:26 PM
>Either I am being a bad friend for not going,<
No. No. No!

>or she is being a bad friend for not being understandable.<
I agree.

Yes, there's some adrenaline flowing in this thread. We care about you & don't want you mistreated.

Crycket
05-02-2010, 08:37 PM
*beams* I am very pleased and honoured to have ppl that care. This is just such a tough position to be put in! Or at least it feels like one. I would rather take $200 or so and put it into some catered food, and a nice shower than have to go through a vacation!

Gertie
05-02-2010, 08:58 PM
I would rather take $200 or so and put it into some catered food, and a nice shower than have to go through a vacation!

Yep. A shower or a ladies tea is a great idea. If they have everything, then maybe a lingerie shower. It'd be fun to have the wedding pics there.

They can throw a wedding party for themselves if they want a large reception. Our nephew married in Mexico at a resort. Only the immediate family were invited & no probs for those who couldn't. They had a lovely (& big) wedding reception that included a video of the wedding ceremony. Worked perfect.

Crycket
05-02-2010, 09:17 PM
See...but you are talking about someone reasonable.

They are going to have to throw a reception cause they are discluding so many ppl.

Sunshine's Mom
05-03-2010, 10:45 AM
See...but you are talking about someone reasonable.

They are going to have to throw a reception cause they are discluding so many ppl.

Wait. What? Are your friend and her fiancee specifically not inviting people or is their guest list dwindling because so many people are not going? If the latter is the case then maybe they need to make their destination wedding a small affair (immediate family only) and plan on a reception back home. It seems that her "perfect wedding" plans are falling through because no one on her side of the guest list is going to compromise their financial stability for her wedding. She's getting grumpy and fussy because no one is seeing her "vision" and helping her achieve it.

Tell her you love her, she's a great friend and, because she is, you know that she'll understand that you simply don't have the time or money to accommodate a destination wedding. It has nothing to do with her or her fiancee personally. It's entirely a financial reason.

Guilt-trip her a bit and see how she likes it. Compliment her. Encourage her. But tell her that her wedding day, ultimately, has nothing to do with you. It's about her and her husband to be. Also, I'd tell her that you don't appreciate the guilt-trip she's been putting on you and how stressed out you've become over it. It's unfair that she can't just accept your answer. You wouldn't do that to her.

Keep us posted. I've got my fingers crossed for you that tonight will go okay.

Crycket
05-03-2010, 08:20 PM
I think I am just part of a guilt spiral.

We talked things out...and really, nothing has changed. She was talking calmly. She is even going to try and raise the money for us to go.

That part might be my fault. I jokingly said "get a fund going and get his family to pay - Say you can't get the matron of honour there unless there is a fund" I think she is actually going to do it. I can't really say no then, can I? I suppose I could, but that would be bad....

It is like talking to a scorned puppy dog. And really hard to spin the "no". Really hard to say no when it is "you are my only friend" that pops up.

Give me a day or two to get angry again, right now I am feeling kinda helpless...if that even sounds right...

Gertie
05-03-2010, 08:42 PM
>I think I am just part of a guilt spiral.<
*sigh*

>"you are my only friend"<
Is this true?

Crycket
05-03-2010, 10:28 PM
Close friend...maybe...

She does have other friends, just maybe not friends that she would bare her soul to. I don't know.

I guess...if it comes down to people that she can't live without...the answer would probably be yes for her...

I know...it is just hard when it is a friend. You think you have it all straight in your head, everything you want to say and all your arguments...and then you are thrown and emotional deuce!

OffJumpsJack
05-03-2010, 10:59 PM
I have been trying to boil this down to the bottom line.
What makes me a real friend? Just because she is being unreasonable, does that give me the right to be unreasonable back? Is she really being unreasonable?

See...this is the sort of thing that goes flying through my mind.

{from way back in the thread..}

Ah, Yes! You have every right to be reasonable. Why did you put the un in there? Did her guilt trip trick you into doing/feeling that? :doh:

Yes, you can support her union without being there. Asking for 700 miles and four days trip is my reasonable limit, 1400 miles and two weeks of your times is extreme. Why not a two to four hour river boat cruise? Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Charleston, South Carolina are two closer locations for such river cruises. Heck, the great lakes are right there near you all (aren't they?) I am sure Virginia has river cruises too.

Her attitude? well Bride-zilla comes to mind at her selfish behavior. Funny but my bride and I took our after wedding vacation as a private affair to get away from other family/friend influence and get a good, stable start on our new life together (20 years ago past March). I think it was a good thing.

Why is she casting for so many life-lines from her past to be there long after the wedding ceremony is over?

Well, it comes down to a simple quote I keep hearing.

"It is good to want things."

But that doesn't mean you can always get what you want nor should anyone expect that.

--Jack

P.S. Okay, from the article:
"In a lot of weddings, the bride is from one place, the groom is from across the country or someplace completely different, and what they do is, they get married in a neutral territory," Dolgin said

Really? Times must be changing. I my day (two decades ago and more) all the weddings were where the bride grew up and the groom and family traveled to the wedding. This was because it was her send off. From a biblical tradition, the bride leaves her family and joins her husband. My bride and I share time on vacation to visit both her and my family.

Someone else pointed out that it seemed like the grooms family was pushing for this destination wedding. Was it your friends idea? A grand, dream wedding that was unattainable until this man and his family came along? It sounded really bad that the groom's family was still pushing for this even when all the brides side were dropping like flies because of the cost/time/distance and extreme inconvenience.

It doesn't sound like a good, equal marriage if the groom and his family are setting the location and seem to be isolating her from her friends and family. That seems dangerously controlling to me. But maybe I am just paranoid ("CONSTANT VIGILANCE" echoes in my head from "Mad-Eye" Moody of Harry Potter series).

Use the knowledge from her mom. Why does she still want a destination wedding if it means none of her family and friends can afford the time or travel to attend? Is her man pushing her to this to separate her from her family and her friends?

The trip would be a good honeymoon after a local wedding. Who is she trying to please or hurt by excluding so much of her own family and friends?

Where will she and her new husband be making their home? Toronto, Edmonton, or elsewhere? Isn't this her last time to have her friends and family celebrate her. Why is she going to such distance to limit their participation?

Have I given you enough questions to pepper her with? When she lays a guilt question on you, then you counter with one of these or others that have been posted. Then also point out what a wedding should be.

But, I am not a counselor nor have I any training in psychology. I am a helpdesk analyst with customer service training. That only covers how to identify the callers personality to determine how to manage their expectations and turn it into an extra-ordinary customer experience. You phrase your response to satisfy the callers basic need but still conforms to what you can do.

I pray this will work out for the best.

Crycket
05-04-2010, 10:17 AM
{from way back in the thread..}


Really? Times must be changing. I my day (two decades ago and more) all the weddings were where the bride grew up and the groom and family traveled to the wedding. This was because it was her send off. From a biblical tradition, the bride leaves her family and joins her husband. My bride and I share time on vacation to visit both her and my family.

that is exactly what her mom was thinking!!

Someone else pointed out that it seemed like the grooms family was pushing for this destination wedding. Was it your friends idea?

Actually, it was....she wanted this when I was planning my wedding, which was before she even met this guy...I told her back then I would not get on a plane!

Use the knowledge from her mom. Why does she still want a destination wedding if it means none of her family and friends can afford the time or travel to attend? Is her man pushing her to this to separate her from her family and her friends?

No, I don't think so. The problem I am having is she doesn't care if no one else is there for her...she wants ME to be there for her. I was telling her why it wasn't exactly a good idea, and she said "you are telling me all the reasons you want to go, all you need is one good reason to go" That really pissed me off....

The trip would be a good honeymoon after a local wedding. Who is she trying to please or hurt by excluding so much of her own family and friends?

I don't know...stubborn I guess!

Where will she and her new husband be making their home? Toronto, Edmonton, or elsewhere? Isn't this her last time to have her friends and family celebrate her. Why is she going to such distance to limit their participation?

This is kinda funny...she is from TO, he is from Edmonton, but he has been living in Burlington. At the moment, he rents a room for himself, she lives at home. Unless they find someplace to live in the next 10 months, and she doesnt have any immediate plans, the will be living apart until they find a place. And get this, he doesn't drive!

Have I given you enough questions to pepper her with? When she lays a guilt question on you, then you counter with one of these or others that have been posted. Then also point out what a wedding should be.

But, I am not a counselor nor have I any training in psychology. I am a helpdesk analyst with customer service training. That only covers how to identify the callers personality to determine how to manage their expectations and turn it into an extra-ordinary customer experience. You phrase your response to satisfy the callers basic need but still conforms to what you can do.

I pray this will work out for the best.


It is a lot of pressure, and I am unfortunately starting to bend to it. The only thing she wants is for me to be there. It makes me feel kinda defeated. The whole things is kinda depressing...

Sunshine's Mom
05-04-2010, 12:03 PM
So she still intends for you to be the matron of honor? That changes things slightly. The guilt does become more intense. I think it's really unfair to tell you that you are her "only friend", and therefore you HAVE to do what she's asking?

She's saying to you, "You're giving me all the reasons you don't want to go, but you only need one good reason to go." That reason, of course, being her and your friendship. I say, if your friendship is that important to her that your reasons for not wanting to go should matter to her. Ask her if they do and if she really understands them. Instead of demanding that you be there, even at her own expense, she should be asking you if it's all right that someone else stands up for her at the wedding and that she understands going is out of your comfort zone. But, since she won't maybe you should tell her that it's okay with you if someone else is her matron of honor.

I think you're going to have to put your foot down and let the chips fall where they may.

Crycket
05-04-2010, 12:42 PM
Her mom said she would stand up for her if I didn't go.

The thing I said that she did understand was "a vacation is a frivilous expense" and she did agree.

When she was leaving, she did ask me once more, if she thought I would come and I said "get Reeds family to pay my way" She laughed and said it was a good idea. She also followed up by saying "I raised $1000 for breast cancer, I can raise money for you to come"

I have to give her one thing, she is doing everything within her power to make this happen. When she was told no, she has gone more than out her way to make it happen, and is still doing it.

I said I didn't want to fly, she made it drivable, I said it would be a pain to drive, she said either her or her parents would do the driving, I said I can't afford it, she is going to do some fund raising. That does leave something to be admired in a certain way. It is THIS that truely makes it hard to say no. When someone is SO determined to get you there that they jump through hoops to make it happen.

I am not saying I still don't have my doubts...cause I do...

If all my doubts are the rock, then all this determination makes up the hard place....

Sunshine's Mom
05-04-2010, 02:41 PM
I know we can be close to our mothers, but who really wants their mother for their matron of honor?

It sounds at though she has accepted that you won't go. So, problem solved. But you still have the guilty feelings. Nothing is going to take those away except the knowlege that your friendship has not been compromised by your not going to her wedding. Maybe having a "welcome home" party for them when they return will make you feel better.

However, if she manages to come up with the money, Crycket, seriously consider this: You might have fun. Please don't let your fears keep you from doing this. Yes, a vacation is frivolous. But, we all work so hard in our lifetimes and most of us will never take advantage of doing something that might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Crycket
05-04-2010, 04:55 PM
Yeah...there is a point there....and I have been flip floping all over the place.

Yes...it could be fun to squeeze out of my shell and step out for a bit...

No...Even if some of it is being paid for, there are LOTS of things that need paying for around here...ie the bathroom with the bubble gum pink walls and dusty rose bathroom ensemble (tub, sink, toilet) that I have been staring at for the 2 years we have been living here that will be put off for another year or so if we go on this trip....

Yes...it might be nice to see a part of the states

No...Not looking forward to the hassle that is getting my passport

Yes...it is March, so it may not be overly warm so a completely summer wardrobe probably isn't necessary

No...I don't want to nor have the money to go buy the kinda wardrobe I should have for a vacation...

Yes...the food sounds great

No...I really need to lose about 30 lbs and this won't help

Yes...it would be really great to be there for her wedding...

No...I really had my heart set on a new computer for my b'day, that will have to be put off til next b'day if we go...

The stream of consciousness goes on like that...Some of it selfish, some of it not. Just when I think I have it figured out...my mind is changed again...

I think she would still be very disappointed if I didn't go, and I do believe the reason she was a little more rational with me yesterday was because she thinks she has the upper hand...

I don't know....

linknit41
05-04-2010, 07:46 PM
I agree with other participants in this discussion. Don't overextend yourself to pay for a trip you really don't want to take. Have you thought if you do go and participate, you will come to resent the pressure she has (unreasonably) put on you to get her way? This is incredible pressure for anyone to put on "friendship" IMHO. So many people said so many reasonable things --if this is a friend, who needs enemies, she is definitely laying a big guilt trip on you, and yes it is the marriage that counts, not the frou-frou overblown details of the wedding. I hope she will come to realize what SHE is doing to your "friendship". my 2 cents worth!! linknit41

Crycket
05-04-2010, 09:00 PM
I agree...add it to the list...

Crycket
05-05-2010, 09:58 AM
Ok...so I think I have really done some thinking on it, and discussing with DH and we are going to say no *fingers crossed*

We are not comfortable taking as much charity as we need to, we have too many finacial obligations to make it feesable and DH would have to work through his Xmas holiday week to make it happen. (as much as I like to dismiss the holiday, there are still so many things to get done that week - not to mention, DHs work is one of those places that closes for that week between xmas and new years, so although he can go in a work for that time frame, it really isn't pleasant.)

The thing that actually caught me of guard is all this time, I have been looking at the major expenses. I actually sat down and spent some time looking at all the little things we would need, and it would really add up.

For the 10 years I was working at the theatre, it was a uniformed job. I was wearing my bumming around clothes or the few things nice I had left from High School to get to work and wore a uniform at work. Got home and mostly into my pjs. My wardrobe sucks. I have recently aquired some "work" clothes for my new job. My MIL bought them for me when I got my new job. But that is a handful of business casual that I couldn't work on a vacation. Plus my bathing suit is from Highschool and has a few holes (still tasteful holes, but holes none the less) so I would need a new bathing suit...essecially a couple hundred more in clothes. Which don't get me wrong, I do need, just one of those things that would be better to buy as you find things you like. I hate one stop clothes shopping days!

The fact of the matter is, either choice I make, would be difficult. But I certainly have to make one, as the lack of sleep alone is wearing me down.

So my thought was to instead of spending thousands of dollars (with or without help) would be to throw a shower. Which I am not sure she would get otherwise. A couple hundred to throw a party far out weighs the whole hog.

So what do you think. I could pull the traditional hen party (and in my opinion snoozefest) or I can have a men and woman party and either keep it smaller...or make it larger...and have it in a restaurants party room, and maybe even have a mock ceremony and possibly a video booth were we could edit together a video of well wishes...*shrugs*

The weight of the decision is off, and that is very nice...I just dread telling her...

Jan in CA
05-05-2010, 12:26 PM
So you've decided the trip is a no go? Good for you. We all love to do what makes people happy, but we also have to think of ourselves and our families. Tell her you love her dearly, but you've thought about it and just aren't comfortable with donations and it's just not going to work for you and your family right now. She will get over it. :hug:

A couples shower sounds lovely. A lot of couples are doing that sort of thing now for both weddings and babies. If it's not a surprise though you could ask her..but maybe that opens up a whole new kettle of worms... :zombie:

Sunshine's Mom
05-05-2010, 12:32 PM
Don't dread telling her. Exactly what you wrote there is sufficient. Decision made. Indicate how painful it is for you, but it's reality nonetheless.

Tell her, as a compromise, that you would love to throw her a shower before they go. Ask her opinion on what she'd like (all girls or co-ed). I think a mock wedding sounds fun. You could be the mock preacher who marries them. Just because it's "mock" doesn't mean that it has to be funny either. You're doing it because of how much you want to hear their vows. It's a dry-run for the big day.

Frankly, if any one of my friends had done something like that for me I would've melted into a big ball of goo it's so sweet.

Get some sleep, already! :hug:

Gertie
05-05-2010, 06:41 PM
The weight of the decision is off, and that is very nice...I just dread telling her...

OK - Good for you. Now gird your loins & get ready for the guilt weapons she's gonna throw at you. If you can, have DH or someone else on your side with you. She's going to want you to justify & explain. You've done it already. IMO you owe her no further explanation. It'll just drag things further. She just doesn't understand the meaning of the word no.

It's so easy for me to sit here so removed & tell you to be polite but firm. I'm sure you can do it. You may come out of it with a little emotional blood shed, but if DH's armor is shiny, he'll be there for you. You'll heal.

Keep us informed.

Crycket
05-05-2010, 09:39 PM
*sigh* yeah...thing is that I am not a weak person with no spine. I know you all don't think that, but I am sure it is sounding a bit like that. Truth being, I can stand up for my self, I just have a weak spot when it comes to friends and family. The same thing happens when my mom lays guilt trips and the reason I did a lot of "comprimising" when my mom turned into Momzilla at my wedding.

I am still dreading the return email from her mom....

MMario
05-06-2010, 09:13 AM
Friends can be harder to deal with then anyone else; family, friends, and "others" all fall into different scopes in our lives - and reactions to them can be very different even for "identical" circumstances.

Gertie
05-06-2010, 11:13 AM
Friends can be harder to deal with then anyone else; family, friends, and "others" all fall into different scopes in our lives - and reactions to them can be very different even for "identical" circumstances.

Oh so true! :yay:

bambi
05-06-2010, 10:52 PM
Be firm Crycket! I agree with what everyone else has said.

You said it yourself: Money is an issue and so is vacation time.

She said it: Whoever can go will be there and everyone else won't.

If she wants the wedding on a cruise ship she has to be prepared if people she loves can't go!

Crycket
05-07-2010, 12:37 AM
I didn't want to make either decision.

You go, and feel uncomfortable for excepting "hand outs", not being happy with the only vacation you will possibly be able to afford in years, thinking there is stuff that needs to be done at home over many years and cutting out on the little things that you do to make yourself happy for leading a lean lifestyle - but you feel good about being there for a friend who really wants you there...

You don't go - you can pay your bills, and feel secure that you can have the odd meal out, and buy things that you need for the house but feel guilty that you just let down a really good friend for the sake of a little "comfort" at home.

I mean really. Morally, I don't feel right not going. But at the same time, feel like it was too much to ask in the first place....Either way, you feel defeated....

Debkcs
05-07-2010, 03:37 AM
Unfortunately for me, I am one of those 2 good friends she wants to take with

She doesn't want to TAKE you, she wants you to pay for your own trip. We paid for the friends we wanted at our wedding, as we were far away from home. Bt they were there and back in three days or less, depending if they came to PA from California or the D.C. area.

Don't feel guilty. A friend would understand the time commitment and the state of your finances. Not everyone has $3000.00 bucks to spend on a wedding. Oh, and if being on a boat makes your husband sea sick, she should graciously understand that also.

Crycket
05-07-2010, 10:09 AM
Actually she doesn't.

Both her and her mom work in a hospital, the answer I got from one was "you are on a 17 story boat, it won't be a problem" and the answer from the other was "get some gravol"

Funny how irony works....

Crycket
05-09-2010, 10:15 AM
Ok...so I talked to her!

She was actually very reasonable. I think if this had all come up earlier it would have been a mess. She was disappointed but saw it coming.

On the up side though, she was very excited about the prospect of getting a shower. I didn't tell her anything about it, just that she would be getting one. And that cheered her up as she didn't think she would be getting one....(and if I had gone, it certainly wouldn't have been me throwing it)

Thanks for all the support everyone!!! It would have been much more tough going without you all!!! *hugs*

Gertie
05-09-2010, 09:36 PM
Good for you!! :grphug:

Jan in CA
05-10-2010, 12:04 AM
:thumbsup:

Sunshine's Mom
05-11-2010, 09:54 AM
Yeah! I'm happy for you. :grphug:

Crycket
05-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Me too!

yarncharmer
05-14-2010, 08:36 AM
FWIW, you ask if you're being a horrible jerk for not wanting to go; I think it is your friend who is being self-centered and insensitive. Who's to say that people would choose to spend their hard-earned vacation dollars on a cruise, especially one centered around a wedding, possibly surrounded by the very people you need a vacation from. Not to mention, as you say, using up all your husband's vacation time. As your friend says, those who can come will and those who can't won't. Just kindly tell her that you are sorry but you won't be able to attend.

eta: oops, I hadn't read anything but your first post when I posted. Congrats on telling her! I'm sure it feels like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders! You did the right thing....

melmac51
05-18-2010, 11:33 AM
@melmac51 - there is absolutely no guilt coming from her mother. She wants her daughter to have what ever she wants, but more so because of all the drama with the cancer. I think she is extra relieved that she is around to have a wedding in the first place. But she has pushed for everything but a wedding away, as it does really cut out the family aspect.

I'm so glad I was wrong. I'd forgotten about her being a cancer survivor.