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Chel
04-16-2007, 08:41 PM
Not trying to get political, but this group tends to be one of the most intellectual, thoughtful groups I belong to and there is no where else I can ask this without starting a war. Also while the majority of people here are women, there are several men all who contribute in positive ways. So, without trying to be inflamatory... I ask your opinions on Womens Lib

Chel
04-16-2007, 08:48 PM
Haha Did I ask a taboo question?

I just find that I have VERY definite opinions on this and have opened my mouth and floored people. Not like I was trying to, but from reactions I get I think I may be in the minority. Perhaps its because I live so close to Washington D.C., but I was hoping my opinion wasn't a singular one.

Susan P.
04-16-2007, 09:10 PM
The only comment I can really make is that I think in all the socio-political rhetoric society has generally failed to celebrate choice. If a woman wants to be a domestic goddess and feels her most fulfilled waiting on someone then her right to choose that (if she chooses so freely and with knowledge) should be as celebrated as a woman who chooses to be a CEO or a woman who wants both worlds as feasibly as possible. The same re men. If a man wants to be the domestic god and primary child carer and the woman would prefer to work or plough the 40 acre field then..yayyyy.. if, again, they are happy.

Contemporary society to me should be about pulling down old demarcation lines and just celebrating *informed* choice.

JoeE
04-16-2007, 09:12 PM
I think it was a good idea in the 1960s, and I think it's a good idea today.

I think Women's Liberation has evolved; which is to be expected. To me it means that women should be able to make decisions for their own lives. How could that ever be a bad thing? There are plenty of folks who believe it's their responsibility to tell you how you should live your life. These people are not your friends, even if they assure you they're doing what's best for you.

Some people march to the beat of a different drummer, and some people polka. Grab your accordion and polka to your hearts content if it makes you happy! That's liberation.

Joe

cathoo
04-16-2007, 10:28 PM
One of my favourite writings on the subject of modern feminism:
Yes, You Are (http://tomatonation.com/?p=677)

It's a reminder that you can be a stay-at-home mom, a college student, a high-powered executive, or a grandmother (or whatever else you want) and as long as you think that you (and all other women) have a right to choose that path you are on, you are, under the original definition of feminism, a feminist.

Chel
04-16-2007, 10:42 PM
Yup. Just as I thought. I'm in the minority. :verysad:

ironmaiden
04-16-2007, 10:53 PM
Not trying to get political, but this group tends to be one of the most intellectual, thoughtful groups I belong to and there is no where else I can ask this without starting a war. Also while the majority of people here are women, there are several men all who contribute in positive ways. So, without trying to be inflamatory... I ask your opinions on Womens Lib

I'm really surprised at the way the poll is breaking down right now... (I didn't catch the actual number of votes cast though so maybe not.)

I believe much of my life would not have been possible if it weren't for early feminists and then those in the 60s-70s.

I think it is just as necessary today as it was then to make sure that women have the same rights as men.

I think the difficulty comes in trying to make "equal" mean "the same" -- I'm not sure this is something that will be resolved in my lifetime.

I consider myself a feminist (quite a vocal and active one at that), but I am also a wife and a mother and a SAHM... In my opinion, equality doesn't mean that everyone has to do the same work -- it means that everyone is free to choose a path, and to change it if it doesn't work.

ironmaiden
04-16-2007, 10:55 PM
Yup. Just as I thought. I'm in the minority. :verysad:

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion?

letah75
04-16-2007, 11:02 PM
Chel,

I'd like to read your thoughts. I guess I'm kind of "young" to remember the whole movement. I'm 31, and while I've definitely seen changes in women's positions in the workplace/t.v./home/etc. I don't remember the 'before'.

Additionally, I come from a very different upbringing than most people. I grew up in the Bay Area in the 80's. My father is an Episcopal priest, at a bilingual church in Oakland. The majority of the congregation is made up of immigrants from all over the world. Growing up (from the time I can remember), the other priest at the church was female, and that to me was normal. My mother worked (elementary school teacher), and I spent the majority of time with my father, as he could take me with him.

My friends mothers were often either not married and therefore the "bread winner" or had "high power" jobs and the fathers were the ones who stayed at home. This was all quite normal for me.

Today I work in a job that is very male dominated. In all honesty the whole women's lib thing is something that while I'm sure has effected my life is not something that I was ever really had much experience with. I grew up in a very liberal area, with liberal parents at a liberal time, around liberal people. Women's lib was just something that I think was taken for granted. The prevalent attitude was work hard, do your job, and you will be taken seriously, and you will excel.

jeanius80
04-16-2007, 11:07 PM
i am glad i am able to do as i please in our society. i do think though that because of womens lib, our society has taken advantage of it and used it to glorify sexuality in movies, tv, games. womens bodies have become so sexualized that people are uncomfotable with breastfeeding. and not just in public. my dh actually asked me if i was going to be done when dd was 6 mo. needless to say, she is still bf'ing at 1 yr, with no end in sight :teehee: . i sort of think that women are oppressed in that we visually and sexually are pushed to conform to a stripper/fantasy/celebrity image. breast implnts are 'normal' and being blond=beautiful.

i guess i think it was a good thing, but no longer so wonderful in part. being able to decide to stay home or work has been the best benefit, as well as being free to make informed choices about my reproductive rights.

i will leave my comments at that.......

chel- what is your view? since ou asked its only fair for you to share :)

Sara
04-16-2007, 11:46 PM
I am a feminist. I am a wife. I am a mother. I am a taxpayer. I am a college student. I am a teacher. I am a voter.

And thanks to the diligent, lifelong work of women like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, among many others, I also have the right to control my own destiny in a society that (supposedly) values freedom and democracy above all things.


I will receive my Bachelor's Degree in Political Science on May 12 at the age of 38. On that day, I will be sending up thanks to my girlfriends, Elizabeth and Susan. And also to my dad, who was the one who told me I could be anything I wanted to be. Yeah, he was a feminist, too.

Sara
04-16-2007, 11:46 PM
And since it bears repeating- Thank A Feminist:


If you are female and

... you can vote, thank a feminist.
... you get paid as much as men doing the same job, thank a feminist.
... you went to college instead of being expected to quit after high school so your brothers could go because "You'll just get married anyway," thank a feminist.
... you can apply for any job, not just "women's work," thank a feminist.
... you can get or give birth control information without going to jail, thank a feminist.
... your doctor, lawyer, pastor, judge or legislator is a woman, thank a feminist.
... you play an organized sport, thank a feminist.
... you can wear slacks without being excommunicated from your church or run out of town, thank a feminist.
... your boss isn't allowed to pressure you to sleep with him, thank a feminist.
... you get raped and the trial isn't about your hemline or your previous boyfriends, thank a feminist.
... you start a small business and can get a loan using only your name and credit history, thank a feminist.
... you are on trial and are allowed to testify in your own defense, thank a feminist.
... you own property that is solely yours, thank a feminist.
... you have the right to your own salary even if you are married or have a male relative, thank a feminist.
... you get custody of your children following divorce or separation, thank a feminist.
... you get a voice in the raising and care of your children instead of them being completely controlled by the husband/father, thank a feminist.
... your husband beats you and it is illegal and the police stop him instead of lecturing you on better wifely behavior, thank a feminist.
... you are granted a degree after attending college instead of a certificate of completion, thank a feminist.
... you can breast feed your baby discreetly in a public place and not be arrested, thank a feminist.
... you marry and your civil human rights do not disappear into your husband's rights, thank a feminist.
... you have the right to refuse sex with a diseased husband [or just "husband"], thank a feminist.
... you have the right to keep your medical records confidential from the men in your family, thank a feminist.
... you have the right to read the books you want, thank a feminist.
... you can testify in court about crimes or wrongs your husband has committed, thank a feminist.
... you can choose to be a mother or not a mother in your own time not at the dictates of a husband or rapist, thank a feminist.
... you can look forward to a lifespan of 80 years instead of dying in your 20s from unlimited childbirth, thank a feminist.
... you can see yourself as a full, adult human being instead of a minor who needs to be controlled by a man, thank a feminist.


-- Author unknown

lauraknits
04-17-2007, 12:01 AM
Women's lib = equal rights for women, right?

What could the argument AGAINST that possibly be?

I work in one of the most male dominated fields out there and am welcomed there.

Yes, I guess you could say I'm for it.

ironmaiden
04-17-2007, 12:31 AM
And since it bears repeating- Thank A Feminist:


If you are female and

... you can vote, thank a feminist.
... you get paid as much as men doing the same job, thank a feminist.
... you went to college instead of being expected to quit after high school so your brothers could go because "You'll just get married anyway," thank a feminist.
... you can apply for any job, not just "women's work," thank a feminist.
... you can get or give birth control information without going to jail, thank a feminist.
... your doctor, lawyer, pastor, judge or legislator is a woman, thank a feminist.
... you play an organized sport, thank a feminist.
... you can wear slacks without being excommunicated from your church or run out of town, thank a feminist.
... your boss isn't allowed to pressure you to sleep with him, thank a feminist.
... you get raped and the trial isn't about your hemline or your previous boyfriends, thank a feminist.
... you start a small business and can get a loan using only your name and credit history, thank a feminist.
... you are on trial and are allowed to testify in your own defense, thank a feminist.
... you own property that is solely yours, thank a feminist.
... you have the right to your own salary even if you are married or have a male relative, thank a feminist.
... you get custody of your children following divorce or separation, thank a feminist.
... you get a voice in the raising and care of your children instead of them being completely controlled by the husband/father, thank a feminist.
... your husband beats you and it is illegal and the police stop him instead of lecturing you on better wifely behavior, thank a feminist.
... you are granted a degree after attending college instead of a certificate of completion, thank a feminist.
... you can breast feed your baby discreetly in a public place and not be arrested, thank a feminist.
... you marry and your civil human rights do not disappear into your husband's rights, thank a feminist.
... you have the right to refuse sex with a diseased husband [or just "husband"], thank a feminist.
... you have the right to keep your medical records confidential from the men in your family, thank a feminist.
... you have the right to read the books you want, thank a feminist.
... you can testify in court about crimes or wrongs your husband has committed, thank a feminist.
... you can choose to be a mother or not a mother in your own time not at the dictates of a husband or rapist, thank a feminist.
... you can look forward to a lifespan of 80 years instead of dying in your 20s from unlimited childbirth, thank a feminist.
... you can see yourself as a full, adult human being instead of a minor who needs to be controlled by a man, thank a feminist.


-- Author unknown

:cheering: :muah: :cheering:

Susan P.
04-17-2007, 12:43 AM
Yes, I must admit I wondered what Chel's view is also after posing the thread and offering that comment.

Well people I just experienced a shock as a woman and I'd like to hear your opinions. I am not hugely overweight but I am not small either. I just had a female job recruiter tell me over the phone that I would never get a job if I was a bigger woman. I would have to have an outstanding track record in order to get past that issue if I was big. I've never commented on any issue about my looks but I do have a knee problem that makes stairs hard to approach so perhaps I had mentioned that to her but I admit I am stunned a woman said that. Now, I'd prefer to know reality than not and I have been told that a female news reader can never be acceptable if large BUT, say in corporations etc, do any of you think a bigger woman is not going to get work? In Australian sizes I'm a 14. Average for my age and height etc would probably be a 12. (But I do have big arms and butt/thighs)

If you were approached and asked your opinion about a product from a simply but nicely dressed well padded woman, would that turn you off?

ironmaiden
04-17-2007, 01:46 AM
Yes, I must admit I wondered what Chel's view is also after posing the thread and offering that comment.

Well people I just experienced a shock as a woman and I'd like to hear your opinions. I am not hugely overweight but I am not small either. I just had a female job recruiter tell me over the phone that I would never get a job if I was a bigger woman. I would have to have an outstanding track record in order to get past that issue if I was big. I've never commented on any issue about my looks but I do have a knee problem that makes stairs hard to approach so perhaps I had mentioned that to her but I admit I am stunned a woman said that. Now, I'd prefer to know reality than not and I have been told that a female news reader can never be acceptable if large BUT, say in corporations etc, do any of you think a bigger woman is not going to get work? In Australian sizes I'm a 14. Average for my age and height etc would probably be a 12. (But I do have big arms and butt/thighs)

If you were approached and asked your opinion about a product from a simply but nicely dressed well padded woman, would that turn you off?

I am a size 10/12 and I'm not large at all... And I don't know anything about Australia, but on our local news here a couple of the women (one reporter/anchor and one weather) are bigger than I am -- never struck me as odd...

I read something somewhere recently about how overweight people are passed over when hiring a lot of the time, but those people were extremely overweight/obese, not size 14... (Not that it's right either way, but I haven't seen any research showing that an average size woman has a hard time getting hired.)

:shrug:

SandraEllen
04-17-2007, 07:49 AM
well, here goes. I really hope this doesn't offend, but Chel asked...

I think that in search of equality, women (and all minorities in general) go too far and demand things that aren't equal.

for example: women's history month. I once complained to someone about how I think that women's history month is absurd. women want to be equal, but they have to have a special month to remember things they did in histrory. "well, sandy, every month is man's history month..." Every month is women's history month too, it's just that the things they do get overshadowed by the better things that men do. If women want to be remembered, then they need to do something great. :shrug:

and don't get me started about lower qualifications for women who are firefighters and police officers. do i think women should be allowed to be fire fighters? absolutely. IF they can meet the SAME qualifications that a man can. The standards are there for a reason. People still need to be carried out of burning buildings.

Do I think womens lib is a good thing? yes.
Do I appreciate the freedoms that I have today? absolutely.
Do i think that women need special concessions? no.

syndactylus
04-17-2007, 08:25 AM
If women want to be remembered, then they need to do something great. :shrug:


George Bush: great president, or the greatest president?

bobi1218
04-17-2007, 08:26 AM
Basically, I will ditto SandraEllen.

Personally, I don't think true equality will ever be achieved until society stops emphasizing the differences. We need to stop being concerned with how many women are in positions of power in this country, or how many women a certain company employs, etc. I cringe every time someone says we need a woman President, or more women Senators, etc. We need to elect the best person for these positions, not the best woman for them. Companies should hire the best applicant for a job, without worrying about numbers. I'm all for woman-owned businesses, but I don't think they should have special tax breaks and special incentives when bidding on goverment contracts. Women should be able to go to college and study whatever subject interests them, but they should be accepted on their own merits, not just because they are female.

I'm very grateful for the rights I have now, and I think the feminist movement (starting with the Suffragettes) made great strides toward equality in this country. But, feminists now want special consideration, and that's not equality.

hunterjenn
04-17-2007, 08:36 AM
I think the difficulty comes in trying to make "equal" mean "the same" -- I'm not sure this is something that will be resolved in my lifetime.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. While I don't believe in such a thing as "women's work," I do believe that pendulum has swung the other way. I'm tired of the insinuation that I'm not as good a woman, or not doing my part, because I choose not to be employed outside the home.

While I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that men and women have pre-defined "roles," I guess I might be considered more of a traditionalist. In our household, my husband's job is to go to work, and mine is to raise our children. We help and support each other in any way we can (and he does household chores, believe me!). I found that when those roles were reversed--when I worked and he went to school/stayed home, neither of us felt as fulfilled as we do now. However, I would never impose those choices or those views on others. I know plenty of women who are fulfilled at work, and I applaud them for it!

Sometimes I feel women who choose to stay home are considered less-educated or unenlightened. :shrug: But that's just the way the world is sometimes. I think we sometimes get so wrapped up in whether or not life's "fair" that we forget altogether to enjoy it!

DianaM
04-17-2007, 09:43 AM
Having lived in Mexico for the first 23 years of my life, I can't really speak for American Women's Lib.

My mother is American born and moved to Mexico in '73 after getting married to my dad. She has told me that she's never considered herself a feminist.

Mexico's a very conservative society that in the last ten years has finally started to open up a little more.
Back in the '70s, my Mom was actually told by other women that wearing slacks was a sign of disrespect. Being the foreigner in town, she adapted.

My parents, being rebels at heart, raised their three kids with the firm knowledge that they could be anything they wanted when they grew up and that diversity was a plus.

When I was in Junior High ('80s), I had classmates stare at me wide eyed and in disbelief when I told them I wanted to go to college. A good chunk of them were already engaged and the others were in the process of getting there. Four quit school after becoming pregnant and got married immediately.
According to one of my classmates, all I really needed was to nab a rich guy. Then I wouldn't have to worry about silly things like college.

In college (mid '90s), I had classmates who told me they were just "killing time" in school until they got proposed to (yup, some quit school after getting their ring).
Some said that yes, they were gonna graduate just to have a diploma but weren't planning on using it.

Good thing was, that in this stage the number of girls who wanted the degree because they planned to use it, vs the girls who just wanted to 'kill time', was larger.

A woman who doesn't marry and have kids is considered to be incomplete. No matter how much she has suceeded in a career.

These days, the stereotype sort of breaks up in terms of money.
If you're low income, don't even try going to school - or become a hairdresser/secretary/nanny/live-in housekeeper -, just marry.
If you're middle income, yes, go to school, but don't quit looking for a husband.
If you're high income, just nab a boy. You'll be fine.


Personally, I think that men and women should have the ability to choose and I think that skills shouldn't be assigned genders.
Men should know about changing diapers, women should know about changing tires.
It's about survival in this world, not knights in shinning armour and damsels in distress.

I want a family and a career and I'm stubborn enough to go for both.

....but that's just me.

Bastelmutti
04-17-2007, 10:03 AM
I grew up with a mom who had the Equal Rights Amendment tacked up in the kitchen - and couldn't get credit when she first got divorced because it had all been under my dad's name, and had callers to her work ask to speak to a man (who would really know what's going on).

Yup, I voted that the women's lib movement was good and continues to be good. I support my family with a successful freelance business and my DH is a stay-at-home dad and soon-to-be teacher. I don't think that our choices would have been possible otherwise.

Inis
04-17-2007, 10:14 AM
Back in the 80's I worked in the advertising dept of our local paper and was given a trainee to train -- a nice young man fresh out of college. A week into the training I discovered that he was being paid considerably more than I.

I questioned the boss and his reply was that the young man was starting a family. Hello! I was a single parent at the time.

And really what the heck does family size have to do with anything? I quit on the spot just fuming mad. I should've stayed and sued for equal pay.

So, yes, I consider my self a feminist -- but also a humanist.

The day we stop having certain expectations (i.e. stereotypes) of people based on gender (or ethnicity) and allow them to be who they are without judgement will be a wonderful day.

ironmaiden
04-17-2007, 11:00 AM
Every month is women's history month too, it's just that the things they do get overshadowed by the better things that men do. If women want to be remembered, then they need to do something great. :shrug:


"Better" according to whom though? History is written by those with the upper hand, which is one of the reasons that minorities and traditionally oppressed groups are often very dedicated to digging up their own history and celebrating it.

Chel
04-17-2007, 11:18 AM
LOL I really don't want to tick anyone off with my opinions. I know some people don't have a choice. You do the best you can. I respect that. I will try to state my case without being inflamatory.

The short answer to this is that I think men should be financing the home and women should be running the home. Traditional roles, traditional values.

The long answer:
I agree what some people have said.
I agree with equal work for equal pay.
I agree with equal opportunity.
I agree with the right to vote.
However, I feel that Womans Lib has caused an overall decline in society. It has been beneficial to women in some ways, but enormously destructive to family values.
Don't get me wrong, I am thankful for the freedoms I have. But I also think we (society in general) have taken things too far, as we have with most of our civil liberties.
For example, just because have the freedom to call someone a *^&!#@ it doesn't mean I should. I believe we should have the freedom to do as we please and the personal responsibility/common sense not to. Just because you can have a child and dump them in daycare doesn't mean you should.

The entire reason this came up is because if the VA Tech shootings. I was on a BBS and the conversation came up regarding blame and there were varying opinions. Some blamed guns, some the NRA, some the Government. I jumped right in saying that the shooter himself is to blame, and society is also responsible.
Here is my BBS response:
This is a terrible tragedy and it was even more terrible to hear people blaming it on guns, the NRA or even the Government. There was one young man in this case, who felt something so strong that he chose to take action and take the lives of others and himself. That isn't the guns fault, it isn't the Governments fault, it isn't the NRA's fault. It is the fault of the one lone individual who made the choice to die and take as many people as he could with him.

If blame needs to be placed somewhere it should be placed on society at large. Our laws are created for the lowest common denominator of society and everyone else lowers themselves to that minimum standard. We go to great lengths to have children and dump them in daycare at the first opportunity. We leave it to day care providers, babysitters and teachers to instill morals and values in our children yet do not allow them to discipline them. Then to add insult to injury we fail to uphold those morals and values at home. Who do we think we are kidding? Spending 2 hours a day with your child is NOT raising them. As a result we have raised an entire generation of insensitive brats who have grown into a generation of insensitive adults whose sense of entitlement outweighs any sense of personal responsibility they may have.

When we reconcile the family unit and stop allowing other people to raise our children, when men are men and hold to their responsibilities, when women recognize that having a career is no longer an entitlement once they have a child, then tragedies like this will no longer be the norm.

And while I know all the womens lib-ers are going to pounce on me for saying this, allow me to qualify my statement by saying I believe women should have careers if they choose. However, once you have a child, you-father and mother, both-are giving your life to a higher purpose and placing your needs above those of your child is no longer your right. You have given your life to a higher purpose and need to behave in a manner befitting that honor.

And yes, I'm a woman.

I guess since I worked in daycares for 14 years I have a different view of them than someone who has never been around them. But I have worked in several, quite a few of which were church affilliated. Those were actually the worst. I wouldn't put my dog into daycare, let alone my child. And its Womens Lib that made daycare socially acceptable.

I guess I was just born a few generations too late. The all the single men I encounter have 1 track minds. "Why buy the cow" syndrome. 1 or 2 kids by different mothers and their "fatherly contribution" amounts to 23 chromosomes and a bi-weekly check.

I know a couple who is going through invitro-but both are career people. When I posed the question of who was going to take care of the baby when mom went back to work the response was daycare. I advised them if they wanted to nurture something so bad, get a puppy. They said that with both of them gone at work all day it would be unfair to the dog. And theres my point.

msoebel
04-17-2007, 11:38 AM
I know a couple who is going through invitro-but both are career people. When I posed the question of who was going to take care of the baby when mom went back to work the response was daycare. I advised them if they wanted to nurture something so bad, get a puppy. They said that with both of them gone at work all day it would be unfair to the dog. And theres my point.

Yeah, I my dh and I work with teenagers. I can definitely say that you can see an impact on their behavior and thought process since they were raised by such a "me" generation. Everything in the world now is about the "me"...we get divorced because it's too hard. We leave our spouses and our kids so that we can go "find ourselves". We drop our kids off in day care so we can go do something "really fun". You would be amazed at how many live in boyfriends and girlfriends there are...which wouldn't be such a big issue IF they weren't completely disposable. These kids have new "mommies and daddies" all the time...sometimes several in a year. It's rather obscene. But it's completely acceptable in our culture...and encouraged. I swear, if I hear Opray Winfrey tell one more person that kids won't be happy if their parents don't take enough "me" time, I think I might vomit. Give me a break. Kids are happy when you love them enough to make them a priority in your life. Not treat them like an accessory.

As for Women's Lib. I love what it was. Suffragettes were amazing. I appreciate my right to vote. To hold whatever position I strive for. To be able to work to get equal pay as my colleagues.

What I don't think works anymore isn't so much the feminist agenda...it's the dominant feminist mindset. That women are somehow better than men...better leaders, better thinkers, better communicators, just better. It's sexism at it's worst. Equality means that even though we are different and can embrace the things that are different about ourselves, that we are still on equal playing ground. No one is better or worse than the next. Who cares if the next president is a woman? If the person is the best candidate for the job, it really shouldn't matter (I gotta tell you...not sure that the female candidate in this election would be the best person for the job...just my opinion.)

I believe in feminism...I do not always agree with the tactics or politics of the modern Women's Lib movement (do not get me started on NOW.)

Just my .02.
Misty

SandraEllen
04-17-2007, 11:40 AM
Chel, I'm going to say that I agree with you to some extent. Some people do feel that they can bring children into the world and have other people raise them and that is good enough.

Here's where I'm going to disagree. I think that you can have your child in daycare and still teach your child all of the things that they should be taught. You can love them, you can nurture them. It's how you use the time that you have available to you. If you bring them home from daycare and ignore them for the rest of the night, you are obviously not taking advantage of that time. You have to realize that a school or a daycare is not going to parent your kids. They can provide care, but it is still your responsibility to raise them.

on the same note, you can be a stay at home mom and still neglect to raise your children. you can still neglect to teach them respect for others.

I don't think you can blame it on working parents.

I don't have children, but when I do, I will have to work. The plan was always for me to stay home, but once we decided to adopt internationally, we realized that we can't afford for me to stay home. I figure that my child will have more love and more care in the 5 hours i spend at home with it every night that it could ever get in an orphanage.

Chel
04-17-2007, 11:42 AM
Exactly.

iza
04-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Hmmm Chel I think you started something dangerous :teehee: I respect your opinion, but daycares can be very good. You might have had bad experiences with them, but you can't generalize.

If you think women should stay at home, good, you know what YOU should be doing. The couple you know are idiots. But working couples are not all like that... again, you can't generalize from your personal experience.

I always find ironic that, whenever we feel there is a "decline" in society, it's all the women's fault. :roll:

I also think we should be very careful to use a situation like Virginia Tech's tragedy to demonstrate our own point of view. We just don't know what happened. Maybe the student who did this was from a very "traditional" family. We had a shooting here in Montreal not so long ago and the killer was also from a very traditional family. One could use exactly the same situation and reverse it completely to say that, in fact, traditional families CAUSE these killings. Would it be true? Of course not! Any attempt to explain something like this with politics is very dangerous. And disrespectful for the victims, really.

This being said, it's an interesting question. And I do respect everybody's opinions. :heart:

Bastelmutti
04-17-2007, 11:52 AM
Frankly I think that the "me" generation/instant gratification issue IS a problem, but I attribute it to a decline in civic-mindedness and consumerist culture rather than feminism.

debinoz
04-17-2007, 12:13 PM
I'm tired of the insinuation that I'm not as good a woman, or not doing my part, because I choose not to be employed outside the home.


:cheering:

I am soooooo tired of people insinuating that I am either "too lazy" or "too dumb" to get a job.

I was brought up in a traditional household and all I ever wanted to be was a wife and mother.

I am.

And I'm extremely happy to be so.

We don't have much money, but we have plenty of love. What else could you want out of life?

mwedzi
04-17-2007, 12:29 PM
This is a dangerous topic, and I think what one feels about this is not unlikely to be tied into what one feels about other civil rights movements. In fact, I've already read comments that have obvious parallels. To be honest with myself and others, oftentimes ones opinions on such things is something I'd rather not know. Because, since my evaluation of a person is closely tied to their beliefs (what is more fundamental about a person than their beliefs?), these kinds of topics can change the way I look at a person once they express those beliefs. And not necessarily in a good way. Of course, there is a lot I could say on this subject, but I think in this case my best reply is:

:whistle:

(dang, i really wanted a mouth zippered smiley, but there wasn't one)

Chel
04-17-2007, 12:30 PM
I always find ironic that, whenever we feel there is a "decline" in society, it's all the women's fault. :roll:



No, I really don't mean that I think its the women's fault. I am saying that IMO Womens Lib has affected the country as a whole in a negative way.

I don't think its womens fault specifically. I think that as the Womens Lib Movement went forward it put so much emphasis on the rights of women themselves, that the importance of family waned.

Bastelmutti
04-17-2007, 12:32 PM
I'm tired of the insinuation that I'm not as good a woman, or not doing my part, because I choose not to be employed outside the home.


:cheering:

I am soooooo tired of people insinuating that I am either "too lazy" or "too dumb" to get a job.

I was brought up in a traditional household and all I ever wanted to be was a wife and mother.

I am.

And I'm extremely happy to be so.

We don't have much money, but we have plenty of love. What else could you want out of life?

Right - this is exactly the point of feminism: you have the choice to work (I don't like to say "stay" - it's a huge workload!) at home or to work for pay. The fact that we have the choice is a great achievement.

I chose to work for pay and my DH chose to stay at home. When equal pay for equal work really kicks in, more men will be able to make that choice if they wish.

Inis
04-17-2007, 12:34 PM
I strongly disagree with you, Chel.

Just because a parent stays home doesn't automatically make them a good OR better parent than a working parent.

nadja la claire
04-17-2007, 12:35 PM
The problem that I have with modern feminists not feminism, is that there are those like Gloria Steinem (I think that's how her name is spelled if not too bad) who think that if we're not doing what they think we should be then we are counter-revolutionary.
It was after all about the freedom to choose how we would live our lives. Wasn't it? I don't want any man or woman telling me how I'm going to live my life or what I can or cannot do. When I was in school many of my female professors tried to turn us into man haters, blaming men for all the ills in the universe. We are all responsible for this world and it's joys and sorrows. I'm sorry, but I'm one of those women who happen to like men in more ways than one.

Some women also think that the movement started with them and ends with them. Women had been fighting for equal rights long before they came along, and we still are. Equal pay for equal work for instance. With the exception of my current job I have never made a salary equal to that of my male peers and in some cases men with little or no experience started at a higher wage than I was making and to add insult to injury I would often have to train them in. When I was cooking I was often derided because I was a woman, but when something had to be done quickly and correctly they came to me.

To end my rant I just want to say that the Womens' Movement is not just for some women, it's for all of us. It makes the Movement a hippocracy when a "liberated woman" doesn't want to pay her nanny or cleaning woman a living wage.

:!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!: :!!!:

Phew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Glad I got that off my chest!!!!!

:muah: :hug:

Nadja xxx

letah75
04-17-2007, 12:42 PM
I'd like to put my two cents in as well. Chel, thanks for giving your honest opinion, even though you were worried you might offend. One of the wonderful things about this forum, is the people. People who think and don't just react.

But on to my thoughts. Growing up where I grew up I was the only one of my friends with two parents in the home. Until I was 3 years old I was either with my dad, or with my aunt durring the day. At 3 years old I went into a daycare/preschool, for 5 hours a day. My other friends were in daycare or with relatives until about the same age. We all grew up wonderfully.

I work with teenagers who are "in the system", and over the last 8 years I have come to some very definate conclusions as to what has changed since I grew up. I know these thoughts will seem like broad generalizations, and I know that they do not apply to all.

1) While there are more and more single parents now, the differences between now and when I grew up are glaring. Today single parents are just that single parents. There is generally no help from the other parent or the other parent's family. What I mean by that is growing up my friends who lived with either mom or dad, still had the other parent around. Even though they didn't live toghether, that other person was still a parent, and their families where involved. They were disciplined by both parents, they knew their grandparents and cousins, there were expectations, and if one parent had to work, both sides of the family would work to be sure the child was taken care of. That is no longer the case. Now you are a single parent and you have little to no support, monitarily or economically from the absent parent or their family.

2) Many people want to be their child's friend, and not the parent. Discipline seems to be going the way of the steam engine. I don't only see this in my work, but in life in general. In stores, on the street, etc.

3) Entitlement. People seem more and more to feel they are entitled to "live their life how they please". Many don't seem to realize that when you have children you are no longer that "swinging single" you always were. You hold a life in your hands, and it is no longer about you, but about your children.

As for staying home with your kids, I think that's a matter of choice. I wasn't harmed by being in daycare, in fact I quite enjoyed it. When I was with my parents I was with them. They were focused on me and always there. I don't think I missed any love by being in a daycare.

Now if given the choice, I would love to stay home with my kids when I have them. But if they end up in daycare because I have to work, I don't think they will be damaged in any way. But I will do my research, and be sure it is the best available.

I haven't proof read this, and I hope it make sense. :-)

Inis
04-17-2007, 12:44 PM
I'm tired of the insinuation that I'm not as good a woman, or not doing my part, because I choose not to be employed outside the home.


:cheering:

I am soooooo tired of people insinuating that I am either "too lazy" or "too dumb" to get a job.

I was brought up in a traditional household and all I ever wanted to be was a wife and mother.

I am.

And I'm extremely happy to be so.

We don't have much money, but we have plenty of love. What else could you want out of life?

My best friend had similar goals, and for 12 years was blissfully happy. Then, her husband cheated, got another woman pregnant and her happiness was shattered. And, financially, she was in such bad, bad shape.

She and her kids lived with me for several years until she could get on her feet -- job training, credit and savings of her own.

I really believe that every woman should be ready -- and able -- to financially support her kids. Women's lib has made that possible.

nadja la claire
04-17-2007, 12:48 PM
I always find ironic that, whenever we feel there is a "decline" in society, it's all the women's fault. :roll:



No, I really don't mean that I think its the women's fault. I am saying that IMO Womens Lib has affected the country as a whole in a negative way.

I don't think its womens fault specifically. I think that as the Womens Lib Movement went forward it put so much emphasis on the rights of women themselves, that the importance of family waned.

The people are the movement. We make it a positve or a negative. I think that the Women Movement was and is a good thing but we're not done yet and we may never be, but we've come along way. As I indicated in my rather lengthly rant many women have lost their way. Many believe that the fight for equality is over because they've gotten what they want.

I understand you reasoning but I don't think that it's necessarily a woman's job to secure the importance of the family, men need to share that burden. Studies have shown that children do better when they have a possitive male influence. We're all responsible for our families.

:muah: :hug:

Nadja xxx

cookworm
04-17-2007, 01:08 PM
The all the single men I encounter have 1 track minds. "Why buy the cow" syndrome. 1 or 2 kids by different mothers and their "fatherly contribution" amounts to 23 chromosomes and a bi-weekly check.

Chel, I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I'm in complete agreement. I believe that the feminist movement had its place when it started for things like equal pay for women for doing the same job, women not being treated like property by their husbands, etc., but in recent years, I too think it's done a lot to break down the family. This "we don't need a man in the family" mentality has done irrepairable damage to the family, and so, after many years of being told their presence in the family doesn't matter, many boys growing up now hearing this mentality will grow up to have a mindset that you described in the quote I pulled from your post, and then they go on to feel like they have no responsibility or obligation when they bring children into this world (and I'm not talking about just the financial obligation, either). I am seeing it more and more and more, and it's frustrating AND terrifying to me. Tell me, what kind of "freedom" is it for women that say that they "have control what they do to their bodies" if they will allow themselves to be used, get pregnant, and be alone to raise a child/children by themselves, working tons of hours, and never getting to spend time with their kids? How is that "freedom" or "choice"? I'm a stay-at-home mom, and I'll tell you, you wouldn't BELIEVE how poorly I've been treated by career women--like I'm some kind of degenerate--"Oh, you must really be stupid to choose to stay at home and take care of kids all day, otherwise, you'd be a high-achiever career gal like myself" kind of a mentality. Um, no, I actually went to college, and wow, I can actually read and write. I didn't know I had to apologize for feeling like trying to raise quality human beings of good character with integrity, honesty, and compassion was the most important job in the world to me. I was a working mom for a while, and I never felt like shuffling papers in an office environment or typing letters or answering phones gave me a real sense of satisfaction of feeling like I was saving the world over what I could be doing at home...yes, even changing poopy diapers, wiping snotty noses, and <gasp> having dinner on the table for my hard-working husband who DESERVES a nice home-cooked meal when he walks in the door. I'm not cricitizing families that have to have two working parents, because it's very hard nowadays to avoid that because of the cost of living; I just don't like having to apologize for choosing to be a stay-at-home mom, and I don't like the mentality that it's equaled to slavery to be a stay-at-home mom, either. Honestly, it's not a prison sentence. :teehee:

syndactylus
04-17-2007, 01:23 PM
So if the mothers of suicide bombers went to work, what would happen then?

auburnchick
04-17-2007, 01:24 PM
I just don't like having to apologize for choosing to be a stay-at-home mom, and I don't like the mentality that it's equaled to slavery to be a stay-at-home mom, either. Honestly, it's not a prison sentence. :teehee:

WOW! What an interesting topic! Y'all's responses have been very interesting to read.

I've been a full-time (40/hr/wk) working outside-the-home-mom, a SAHM (for eight years), and now a part-time (30/hr/wk) mom. I am also a conservative Christian.

First of all, let me say that we don't have to apologize for the choices we make to work/stay home/have kids/not have kids/etc...

During my years at home, I occasionally got the "What do you do all day" question. Ummmm..."Eat bon bons and watch Days of Our Lives..." DUH!!! The point is that I could do what I wanted. If someone didn't like it or looked down on me...oh well. I answer to God, and it's no one's right to judge me. Period.

I think women's lib was good at first. It helped open many doors for us. But I think the agenda sometimes goes too far now.

The most important thing is that we aren't pigeon-holed into fitting someone's "idealized" role for us just because we are a certain gender or race. The women's movement simply put everything out there...the things people talked about but didn't do much about for years.

I have a daughter and a son. Both of them know that they can do whatever they set their minds to, and it's not based on what sex God chose for them to be. My son is expected to wash dishes, cook, clean the toilet, and do his laundry and ironing, just as my daughter is. They have watched me do things that are supposed "man" things, in fact doing them better than the "man of the house." :teehee:

One final note...I think everyone has done a good job maintaining a non-combative attitude when sharing their views. Great job!

Bastelmutti
04-17-2007, 01:24 PM
This "we don't need a man in the family" mentality has done irrepairable damage to the family, and so, after many years of being told their presence in the family doesn't matter, many boys growing up now hearing this mentality will grow up to have a mindset that you described in the quote I pulled from your post, and then they go on to feel like they have no responsibility or obligation when they bring children into this world (and I'm not talking about just the financial obligation, either).

Wow, you really think men started abandoning their families with the advent of feminism?

iza
04-17-2007, 01:53 PM
To be honest with myself and others, oftentimes ones opinions on such things is something I'd rather not know. Because, since my evaluation of a person is closely tied to their beliefs (what is more fundamental about a person than their beliefs?), these kinds of topics can change the way I look at a person once they express those beliefs. And not necessarily in a good way.

You are SO right. I think I'd rather not know what people think on these kinds of issues. :pout: People are pretty good about how they express their opinions, but still... it can change how you look at someone and it's sad.

Julie
04-17-2007, 01:53 PM
Frankly I think that the "me" generation/instant gratification issue IS a problem, but I attribute it to a decline in civic-mindedness and consumerist culture rather than feminism.

I totally agree with this. Our culture is so centered on convenience and consumption, it's quite worrisome to me. :pout: I mean, I do what I can to counter it within my own home but man, it's exhausting when the entire culture is working against you. ;)

Interesting topic! While I do appreciate the sacrifices of those who came before me, fighting for rights that most take for granted (voting, credit, etc), I don't identify at all with the modern feminist movement. I'm much more in line with the IWF (http://iwf.org/).

I was raised in the 70s, in a pretty liberal/nontraditional family: mom always worked and built things with tools, dad cooked and did the grocery shopping. There was not much talk of values or right and wrong in our house, but the one thing that was drilled into me repeatedly was that independence was the most important thing for us to develop. It was so so so important to my mom that we be able to take care of ourselves.

Imagine her surprise when I grew up to be a quite conservative woman, whose chief desire was to get married and raise children. :roflhard: She was seriously freaked out by that.

bip
04-17-2007, 01:54 PM
It is imperative that society forces us into very tightly defined gender roles regardless of what each individual's aptitudes and desires might be. We must make sure that women are paid less than men so they will be encouraged to stay home where they belong. Men must be pressured to work outside the home and bring home the bacon. There are no choices, only shirking of biologically mandated duty. Fish may not want to swim, but biologically, they must. It is the same for men and women. It is important that any time a woman chooses to step outside this expectation, we must shame her back into compliance. The very fabric of society depends upon it.

Ow, I think I bit my tongue, it was so far in my cheek...

letah75
04-17-2007, 02:30 PM
It seems as though there are two different conversations being had here. Women's lib. versus family values.

The right to vote, equal pay, the right to work, being viewed as equals versus do people raise their children and put them first.

I agree with many who've written equal does not necessarily mean the same. In general women and men have different talents and drives. Not all women have a "mothering" instinct, and not all men have the "bring home the bacon" drive. Depends on the person. What works for one family doesnít' necessarily work for another. That being said, what I'm seeing is everyone agrees parents are important, spending quality time with your children and your families should be your priority. Everyone just has slightly different ideas regarding how they should go about that.

Everyone seems to agree the ideals of the Women's Lib movement were positive. I think itís a bit of an over simplification to state men aren't involved in the family because they've been told they aren't necessary. We live in a very different society than anyone in history ever has. Everything is easy to get, and quick to get. People work for a living, but don't always get the feeling of having completed anything. Many jobs are as someone described earlier "paper pushing jobs". I think in the past 50 years or so money has become an object just as much as a car or a house. It's not longer something to earn for the family, but something to earn to have.

Perhaps that is why this forum is so different from many other on the 'net. The people who frequent this forum are "throw backs to another time". :teehee: What I mean by that is we know how to sit down and focus on ourselves, and our needs. We can take the time to relax, and when that time is up, we have something to show for it. How many people these days really make things, do things, and have an appreciation for the work that goes into a simple scarf or mitten. (And no I'm not just trying to bring it back to knitting, he he). The understanding we have for the time it takes to learn to knit, to become good and comfortable in our 'hobby' makes us appreciate the other things in life. Family, work, life in general. We realize that beauty comes from work, time and patience. This is not something that is taught and/or shared with people now.

Sitcoms wrap up in 30 minute, love stories always have a happy ending, the epiphany always comes....in reality, if people don't get it now it's not worth the wait.

I think it's not so much a women thing or a man thing, but a people/societal thing. Do we let the t.v. raise our kids, do they go out and play, do they know their great-grandparents names and stories? You can be a wonderful parent and have your children in daycare, just as you can be a horrible parent and be at home all of the time. We've all seen both. What is most important is the ability to raise your family with loving support, and teach morals/values and respect for themselves and others. This is what I feel is lacking in the world.

I have to say I am enjoying reading the differing views of the people on this board. Whether I agree or disagree is not the point. People are being in my view respectful and polite. I could disagree with you 5 ways from Sunday, but it will never change how I feel about this forum nor the people on this board. Differences make the world interesting, and the people in it unique. I would be so completely bored if everyone agreed with me all of the time.

I thank you all for the discussion and the wonderful way in which it is being done. :hug:

Bastelmutti
04-17-2007, 02:38 PM
What a great post letah75!!

:notworthy:

AnreeAce
04-17-2007, 03:03 PM
I will be a deeply committed and highly active feminist until the day I die.

This does not make me a man-hater or anti-family, it just means that I insist on my right to be treated as a fully functional member of society, with the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else.

Sara's list on the first (?) page of this thread really struck a chord with me. There are so many things that we take for granted now, like the right to vote and the right to own property, which courageous women fought and sometimes died for. The history of the Women's Suffrage movement in this country, and in the UK, can make your hair stand on end. But if you don't use your rights, its tragically easy for them to be eroded while you're not looking.

lauraknits
04-17-2007, 03:43 PM
Frankly I think that the "me" generation/instant gratification issue IS a problem, but I attribute it to a decline in civic-mindedness and consumerist culture rather than feminism.

Exactly so!

ChroniclesofYarnia
04-17-2007, 03:57 PM
Wow, this was an amazing read. Thank goodness my daughter napped today.


I wanted to address one part of this that I haven't read stated (and forgive me if it was), but that is the consequences of women deciding to go into the workforce.

I am all for equal rights, and the right for women to work, but when we got that right and made that choice, we made it alot harder for women to make the choice to stay at home. Back in the day, you could support a family on one income, since the wages were higher and women weren't expected to work outside of the home. It essentially raised the cost of everything since the prices went up since there was more expendable income. There are alot of families who are forced to have both parents work, simply because there are twice as many people in the work force and it drove down wages and boosted unemployment. (Of course, factor in all the advertising, "me" factor, and rampant consumerism and you've got some it there.)

Another little thing that i've noticed is that in career society we talk about how women don't make as much and don't get promoted as quickly. I read a study on this, and it pointed out that women take more time off for their children, cost more in benefits (on-site daycare, etc.) than men, so it would make sense since they don't work as much. Yet many use it to bolster an argument that we are not equal. That makes no sense to me.

Hope that this post made sense. :)

Mommy22alyns
04-17-2007, 04:11 PM
It was after all about the freedom to choose how we would live our lives. Wasn't it?

That's what it comes down to, for me. Unfortunately, society tends to value individuals based strongly on how much money they can make, therefore "SAHMs" are frequently looked down upon.

It saddens me that many women are so divided on little things - at-home or working, breast or bottle, etc. when there are truly terrible things happening to children every day. :pout:

I've gotten off topic. I do agree a lot with Nadja - I think the whole thing has been b@stardized and the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. "Feminist" has become equatable to "man-hater." I'm all for breaking down boundaries and entering new territory - I love it when people defy stereotypes. But that can come without beating others into the ground.

Anyone want to join me in "Kumbaya"? :teehee:

Chel
04-17-2007, 04:29 PM
See? THIS is what I was looking for. Anywhere else I may have started this thread it would have been totally consumed by people flaming each other. You guys are the only ones I have come across who actually listen and respect others opinions and their right to have them.

I wanted others opinions on this... not only because I think I am biased by the power/money hungry area I live in, but for other reasons too.

ironmaiden
04-17-2007, 04:30 PM
I wanted to address one part of this that I haven't read stated (and forgive me if it was), but that is the consequences of women deciding to go into the workforce.

I am all for equal rights, and the right for women to work, but when we got that right and made that choice, we made it alot harder for women to make the choice to stay at home. Back in the day, you could support a family on one income, since the wages were higher and women weren't expected to work outside of the home. It essentially raised the cost of everything since the prices went up since there was more expendable income. There are alot of families who are forced to have both parents work, simply because there are twice as many people in the work force and it drove down wages and boosted unemployment. (Of course, factor in all the advertising, "me" factor, and rampant consumerism and you've got some it there.)

I was going to say this earlier and I never got around to it. From a purely economics/mathematical perspective, a lot of the negative financial issues we face as a society now can be drawn back to women entering the workforce. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have, it's just one of the consequences.

It's simple supply and demand -- fewer workers means better wages, more workers means workers are expendable and means lower wages.

Unfortunately at this point this is not possible to reverse -- the focus needs to be on ALL workers earning a living wage -- the profit from increased production and cheaper wages goes to a small minority of business owners, not to the majority of workers.

The power structure in whatever industry it is holds onto the extra cash they aren't paying out to their expendable workers rather than spreading it around a bit.

CarmenIbanez
04-17-2007, 04:39 PM
I strongly disagree with you, Chel.

Just because a parent stays home doesn't automatically make them a good OR better parent than a working parent.


I would just like to add this to the mix: I work at a very well to do private school. A vast majority of the mothers at my school are stay at home moms. And a vast majority of them have children who are quite ill-behaved, lack intellect or academic curiosity and have a horrible sense of dependence and entitlement. Children raised with stay at home moms are not automatically better behaved, or morally superior.

I also believe in traditional values. I am a feminist who abandoned my first career choice so that I could be available when my child was home. Instead of becoming a lawyer, I became a teacher. My husband did the same. Through hard work and debt, one of us has always been there when my son comes home from school. The only daycare my son ever went to was preschool. He went for two half days a week, mostly to socialize, because he was an only child, I didn't know anyone, and we live in a climate that isn't appropriate for park going year round. THANK GOD for daycare. It was a daycare/preschool teacher who first approached me about the possibility that my son was learning disabled. Without early intervention, my son could have ended up seriously academically hindered.

It's true that you cannot be everything to all people. Having a career can distract you from your family and having a family can distract from your career. Often times, men don't have to share this burden, because even if both parents work, the responsibility for children rest on the woman. I am lucky that my husband and I have created a partnership. My son has learned that family is and should be important to both parents, that the responsibility to finance life is also the responsibility of both parents. It takes a whole familly to properly raise a child, parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts and friends.

Here is my last point. I recently rekindled a friendship with a woman who married very young, and raised four kids at home while her husband become an attorney. After lawschool, he began working and within a year of starting his work left his wife and kids for a better carefree life with a new single woman. He moved out of state, leaving her with the house, but no way to pay for it. She ended up in foreclosure, and was on the brink of being moved to the homeless shelter when she finally confessed to a relative who took her in. She had no job skills, no training and no way to make enough money to support 4 kids. I know, I KNOW! It's one of those anecdotes that everyone thinks are made up. But it isn't, because I really know this woman. This story could happen to anyone. A husband could die, or be killed. Or leave. Women who raise children are doing the most important job they could do. But if you really want to be responsible, you need to be educated and have job skills. Most women I know who stay at home do, but I know there are a lot of women who don't, and I worry for them and their kids.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, okay, I'm done now.

phisch
04-17-2007, 06:29 PM
Sadly, I know someone who's going through the same thing. Her husband is moving to divorce her. Legally, things are swinging differently and now, according to her attorney, she needs to try her best to secure a job so that she looks favorable in court. Used to be, apparently, that the husband would have to provide lots of alimony to make sure the wife's lifestyle wouldn't be affected too much (having no experience with that, I can't say if that's right or not).

hunterjenn
04-18-2007, 12:30 PM
Yep--I grew up with that example. My grandparents married in 1950, and my grandmother quit school to be a housewife. When Grandpa left her and my 16-year-old aunt in 1985? Chaos, meltdown, impending doom! She (and my parents) pounded into me the importance of an education, regardless of my future plans. I'm so grateful to know that if something terrible happened, I could go to work and support our family well.

I'm so impressed by how carefully everyone has expressed their opinions, and how graciously they've been received!

CarmenIbanez
04-18-2007, 12:33 PM
I'm so impressed by how carefully everyone has expressed their opinions, and how graciously they've been received!

That's because we are all awesome women (and men)!

brendajos
04-18-2007, 12:49 PM
I am going to add something here that really has nothing to do with the conversation but it just struck me as I read the thread.

I used to be a financial planner and it always horrified me to see how many families with either a SAHM or SAHD only planned for the loss of income if the money earner were to pass away. Nobody ever considered what would happen if the caregiver were to pass away. (Yes, I am afraid I was that scare tactic sales person without intending to be... the problem was I became friends with most of my clients and the idea of this just terrified me for them!)

Consider everything you do in a day and what the money earner would have to pay to get those things "replaced." If you tried to put a dollar figure on it the number would be astronomical. The formula I was taught when discussing life insurance was to consider how much insurance you have, drop the last four zeros, and multiply times 2. This would be the amount per day your survivors would have to live on if something happened to you (Not including their income of course.)

So if you have $150,000 in insurance, you would have $30/day. Doesn't sound so bad until you consider that it would be less than $11k/year for a nanny or whatever to take care of the kids and the house.

Anyway... Please please please make sure that you sit down and talk about it. As we have seen over the last few days ANYTHING can happen without warning!


OOOH ... and just as an FYI... in some states, if you are divorced and not remarried, and you have no will or haven't updated your will, the last person you were married to gets everything...

GET A WILL AND KEEP IT UPDATED!

When my father passed away suddenly one of my cousins decided they needed to check their will and realized it had been so long since they updated it, that their youngest daughter wasn't included except as "other children." She was pregnant with her own 3rd child at the time.



okay... carry on... ;) :muah:

CarmenIbanez
04-18-2007, 01:02 PM
I was also going to add in the "financial planning" arena: retirement. If you are a stay at home mom or dad, and you are not working at all, you do not pay into social security. Therefore, if anything goes wrong with your personal retirement planning and saving, you may not have any income to draw off of in your old age. So don't forget to plan for the retirement of your SAHM or SAHD too!

brendajos
04-18-2007, 01:07 PM
I was also going to add in the "financial planning" arena: retirement. If you are a stay at home mom or dad, and you are not working at all, you do not pay into social security. Therefore, if anything goes wrong with your personal retirement planning and saving, you may not have any income to draw off of in your old age. So don't forget to plan for the retirement of your SAHM or SAHD too!


lol well and while we are at it then PLEEEEEEEEASE consider long term care insurance. The younger you are the cheaper it is and if my memory serves the price doesn't increase unless they raise the price of the entire class. Get it while you are young and healthy. I know it is the last thing people generally will consider because they consider it old age insurance but the last numbers I heard indicated that the vast majority of people in some sort of nursing home facility are under the age of 65... and most are caused by some catastrophic disease or accident.

and not all LTC insurance is created equal so definitely shop! You would much prefer having YOUR doctor indicate that you need it rather thant he insurance company's doctor decide that... and you would definitely rather have the option for in home care rather than facility care if possible.


and never ever ever never never say no to Disability insurance when it is offered!

umm... i think i am done now...lol

Chel
04-18-2007, 01:39 PM
*edited because it was really long convoluted*


:-P

msoebel
04-19-2007, 12:17 PM
I posted earlier, but after reading my orginal post...don't feel that I communicated my thoughts as well as I would like.

I wanted to say:

-There is a "me" mentality out there now, not necessarily a result of the feminist movement, that is affecting the family dynamic and seriously injuring our children.

-My greatest issue with Women's Lib is not really the mission statement of the movement, but of the general mind set that I see of modern day "feminists"...that women are somehow better than men. Better communicators, better leaders, better minds, better parents, etc... I am disgusted by all sexism, and believing that one sex is superior based on their chromosomes is wrong.

-I am also unhappy with the movement because I think it focuses almost exclusively on women in America (who, by universal standards already enjoy a standard of living much higher than women in most other countries). Very few feminists seem at all concerned that 10 year old girls are sold into sexual slavery every day in Tibet, Inda, Malaysia...very few feminists are concerned that women in Iraq today are living in fear for their lives...because Iraqi "police" can break into their homes at any time, kidnap them, and force them to do whatever they want...and no one will do anything about it. Very few feminists are even aware that the designer clothing they are wearing weas made by 12 year old girls in textile factories in Latin America...for pennies a day.

Until the feminist movement truly becomes about all women, I just have a hard time throwing myself behind it now.

That's all.
Misty

Stiney
04-19-2007, 12:24 PM
I didn't vote, and didn't read this whole thread (yet), but I didn't vote because "my" option isn't there.

Women's Lib was a great thing, is a great thing, and still has a ways to go. Women have become placid, but there are still glass ceilings, double standards for salaries, etc. We're making strides in sexual abuse cases, but there are still lots of problems. Don't stop fighting!

brendajos
04-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Misty has pointed out something that is a sticking point for me too. We spend a lot of time in our country (and by "our" I mean the US... I can't say anything about other countries on this issue) waving the "Made in America" flag when there are "protectorates" that are not being required to follow our labor laws. The goods made in those protectorates can be stamped with the "Made in America" label because they technically "belong" to us. There young girls being sold into all forms of slavery in those places, including slave labor, meaning that in many cases our clothes that are being made in America are being made in the same types of sweatshops that we abhorr in other countries.

And honestly there is NO clothing that isn't, in some part, made in another country. The last I understood (and this was recently) there are no textile plants in this country that are tasked to make consumer textiles... they are all for industrial uses. This means our fabrics have to be coming from somewhere...

It is hard to be educated on it all and I know I find the little that I do know to be overwhelming but it is definitely something to think about when shopping. :verysad:

iza
04-19-2007, 12:53 PM
It's an interesting post, Misty. But I know many women involved in "modern feminism" who are very active in organizations dedicated EXCLUSIVELY to defend women's rights around the world. And I know some of them wear EXCLUSIVELY fairtrade clothing, for instance. I think one problem is that no media really care about this kind of feminism, unfortunately. So nobody knows about it! But the fact that we don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I totally agree with you that we must be really careful not to go too far. I too am a bit concerned sometimes when I hear things suggesting women are "better" than men. The only way to make sure that the movement is going where we want to, it's to get involved! You're a women, believe in equal rights, and you think some issues aren't addressed properly? Participate!

:doh: I promised myself I wouldn't post anything else on this topic. oh well. :teehee:

Jan in CA
04-19-2007, 12:56 PM
There have been a few posts that could have turned this into a flame war, but thankfully they were not responded to or were the replies were kind. Thank you all for keeping this an informative and thoughtful topic! You're the best!

:cheering: :cheering: :cheering: :cheering: :cheering:

ironmaiden
04-19-2007, 01:06 PM
-I am also unhappy with the movement because I think it focuses almost exclusively on women in America (who, by universal standards already enjoy a standard of living much higher than women in most other countries). Very few feminists seem at all concerned that 10 year old girls are sold into sexual slavery every day in Tibet, Inda, Malaysia...very few feminists are concerned that women in Iraq today are living in fear for their lives...because Iraqi "police" can break into their homes at any time, kidnap them, and force them to do whatever they want...and no one will do anything about it. Very few feminists are even aware that the designer clothing they are wearing weas made by 12 year old girls in textile factories in Latin America...for pennies a day.

Not trying to start an argument, but this is untrue. I don't think you know the same feminists I know.

nadja la claire
04-19-2007, 05:21 PM
I posted earlier, but after reading my orginal post...don't feel that I communicated my thoughts as well as I would like.

I wanted to say:

-There is a "me" mentality out there now, not necessarily a result of the feminist movement, that is affecting the family dynamic and seriously injuring our children.

-My greatest issue with Women's Lib is not really the mission statement of the movement, but of the general mind set that I see of modern day "feminists"...that women are somehow better than men. Better communicators, better leaders, better minds, better parents, etc... I am disgusted by all sexism, and believing that one sex is superior based on their chromosomes is wrong.

-I am also unhappy with the movement because I think it focuses almost exclusively on women in America (who, by universal standards already enjoy a standard of living much higher than women in most other countries). Very few feminists seem at all concerned that 10 year old girls are sold into sexual slavery every day in Tibet, Inda, Malaysia...very few feminists are concerned that women in Iraq today are living in fear for their lives...because Iraqi "police" can break into their homes at any time, kidnap them, and force them to do whatever they want...and no one will do anything about it. Very few feminists are even aware that the designer clothing they are wearing weas made by 12 year old girls in textile factories in Latin America...for pennies a day.

Until the feminist movement truly becomes about all women, I just have a hard time throwing myself behind it now.

That's all.
Misty


I know of several groups that address these problems. I belong to a labor group called CLUW (Coalition of Labor Union Woman) every year we hold a benifit for Women Against Abuse. They fund shelters for poor women who are escaping domestic violence. This year we also raised moneys for the families of the Women of Juarez. Also part of the agenda was what we can do to stop the trafficing of women and children around the world. CLUW also makes it's members aware of the labor practices of manufacturers both in the US and abroad and we in turn make others aware through phone calls and emails. So some feminists are doing something.

I know that there are "feminists" out there that who are feminists in name only (as indicated in my earlier rant) but there are those of us out therestill fighting for everyones rights.

:muah: :hug:

Nadja xxx

Carol_OH
04-19-2007, 06:35 PM
I don't think you can blame it on working parents. .

and I"ll add, I don't think you can blame it on women's lib

phisch
04-19-2007, 09:20 PM
-There is a "me" mentality out there now, not necessarily a result of the feminist movement, that is affecting the family dynamic and seriously injuring our children.

I wonder though, if the modern (post 60s) feminist movement is a result of this and not necessarily a cause? It seems like many negative events happened around the same time period and things snowballed.

I keep hearing people say "kids these days!" and it is sad. When I was little my mom made me read an etiquette book for teens that was published in the 50s and boy, was it ever different! Their issues involved things like boys walking on the street side of the sidewalk when they were with a lady and you shouldn't talk with your dance partner until the dance is over and if you are a lady, you have the choice of whether or not you offer your (gloved) hand to a gentleman you were being introduced to.

As a tomboy, I really resent people telling me where my place is but at the same time, I do kind of wish that we still celebrated the specialness of being the "fairer sex." I realize people have come to associate that with weakness but, IMHO, that's a view that one develops for oneself. I don't really see myself as weak when I accept a door opened for me, you know?

Kind of a side note: I grew up in the Philippines and in the crowd I grew up in, girls were expected to grow up and go to college just as much as the boys were. The mentality was that the smart kids ruled, so they were the popular ones. They've had two women presidents and, by and large, it wasn't so much their sex that was discussed as who they were associated with. I find it kind of an interesting contrast to Mexico (as someone related in their experience).

There's a caveat though. Women aren't completely respected there. They have issues very worthy of a second look and a helping hand. There's a huge sex trade that involves women, girls and boys among other issues.

Well...I hope I didn't get myself in trouble. I do like how people are discussing as opposed to arguing this topic. Knitters not only have great humor and patience, but are really amicable!

caviar
04-19-2007, 10:21 PM
First of all, thank you to all the women and men who made it possible for me to live the life I have: a woman with a B.S., a B.A., and an M.A. who sometimes stays at home full time, sometimes works (very) part time, and who has the job skills to support herself and her children if her husband ever dies or leaves her. What a gift the past generations have given me; none of it would have been possible without those who have gone before.

Second of all, what is this "traditional values" stuff? I would say that traditionally (read: throughout most of the world and throughout most of time) there was no such thing as a stay at home mom, in our sense of the term. Maybe mothers have had more responsibility for the kids than the dads. But in general, mothers have worked, in the home or out, with the childcare being shared with extended family and close community. The fifties in the US were the exception, not the tradition. If you want to blame someone for the widespread use of daycare, maybe we should look at, say, the airline and automobile industries, because they made it easier for family generations to move apart. It's never as simple as it seems; there is never a single cause for any social phenomenon. I not only owe this incredible choose-what-I-like, stay-at-home privilege to past generations, but also to the fact that I live in a time and place (unlike most of my sisters throughout history) that my family's basic needs can be provided for on one income. I can go to the store and purchase the things I need to feed, clothe, and shelter my family, without the need to do every blessed thing myself and reinvent the wheel....well, except for knitting sweaters. :)

My two cents.

Kirstin

ecb
04-21-2007, 12:26 AM
as a part time stay at home mom, I am semi educated (I have an AD RN) and I have 3 children who outlived their father, and so get SS survivor benefits
If I go to work I will end up paying nearly what I will bring home in childcare and food (and make up for never being around crap)
so except for my Summer job (when I have the kids WITH ME) I choose to not work out side of the home. I do childcare, and Office cleaning, and book keeping. But nothing I cannot do while the kids are in school, or with them with me.
I am no where near as good a Mother as I think I need to be, or even as good as my kids need me to be, but it is the best I can do as long as I M alone, and I M not willing to choose just anyone to co-parent these kids I have
This decision is made even harder by the fact that I M gay

ecb