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View Full Version : Call me a horrible person...<rant>


Chel
07-20-2007, 02:14 PM
I am just seething and sick inside. I just read a news story where 2 teenage girls set a kitten on fire. Someone heard them laughing while the cat was sheriking in pain. And these kids are up for charges of animal cruelty. No way. Not near enough. People say its "just an animal". Well 100% of all serial killers began torturing animals. I say life in prison at the least. Death penalty. I'm sorry. When it comes to torturing the ones without a voice, animals, the disabled, children, the elderly I do not think there should be a chance. Especially not when you take pleasure in the harming of others. Things like this make me lose my faith in humanity.

The hardest part for me is that they took pleasure in hurting this poor creature. The cat is still alive. Its being treated by a Animal Hospital. Who could do such a thing. I'm sorry. I don't even think these people deserve to be called human beings and they should not have any privilages as such.

People in the community are complaining that this is getting more attention than the slaying of a teenager in the same area. What don't they understand? ANY lost of innocence is still a loss. Any loss of life is still a loss. The circumstances are both tragic.

This just makes me so sad. And everyone in the office is looking at me funny because I am sitting at my desk crying over a cat.

LibraryLady
07-20-2007, 02:18 PM
You are NOT a horrible person! :muah::hug::muah::hug:

You are absolutely right! Cruelty to animals is generally ALWAYS the first visible sign of sociopathic/pyschopathic behavior. It's VERY scary to see this treated so casually!

Please, Please, try to let us know how the cat is faring! :pray:

LL

Chel
07-20-2007, 02:28 PM
Here is the story-it includes a pic of the cat.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289880,00.html

I feel horrible saying these girls should get the death penalty. I feel that way because it would be horrible for thier parents and the rest of their family. But thats the only reason.

Carrie218
07-20-2007, 02:32 PM
It is because we who live in this community (as I do) are appalled that this cat (and don't get me wrong, I am a cat owner!) is getting more news coverage on a day-to-day basis than the dozens of rapes, murders, and infractions against HUMAN BEINGS.

It is not tit-for-tat and one cannot compare apples to oranges, but we who live in the Bay Area are simply aghast at mis-guided passions. To me, it is akin to the PETA people spending all their time and energy against the production of foie gras, a product consumed by the minority where mere hundreds of ducks "suffer" yet they ignore the tens of thousands of chickens being abused in production of Foster Farms products.

It is simply a matter of perspective and what is more important to each individual.

Jan in CA
07-20-2007, 02:36 PM
I am so shocked and disheartened to read that. :pout: I'm also angry. It makes you wonder what their parents are like.

Luvmyrottnboy
07-20-2007, 03:34 PM
It is because we who live in this community (as I do) are appalled that this cat (and don't get me wrong, I am a cat owner!) is getting more news coverage on a day-to-day basis than the dozens of rapes, murders, and infractions against HUMAN BEINGS.

It is not tit-for-tat and one cannot compare apples to oranges, but we who live in the Bay Area are simply aghast at mis-guided passions. To me, it is akin to the PETA people spending all their time and energy against the production of foie gras, a product consumed by the minority where mere hundreds of ducks "suffer" yet they ignore the tens of thousands of chickens being abused in production of Foster Farms products.

It is simply a matter of perspective and what is more important to each individual.





This is not a misguided passion. And I think folks who think this is getting too much coverage are missing the point.


Two CHILDREN tortured and maimed a DEFENSELESS , innocent creature. These children are clearly sick and yes, they should shout this story to the rooftops.

A poor kitten today, maybe someon's child tomorrow.

Look at the big picture.

Kaydee
07-20-2007, 03:57 PM
I think you're right they should at least get a VERY large prison sentence. The fact that they seemed to get enjoyment from hurting an innocent life shows that they obviously are sick people.

Did you hear about the NFL player Michael Vick who was fighting pit bulls? Apparently if they (him and whoever was doing it with him) didn't feel that the dog was up to their standards they would electrocute it, drown it, or do a number of other horrible things to kill it. Here's (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/20/vick.dogfighting/index.html) a link to story on CNN for more details. Sometimes I just can't imagine how people could be so cruel.

Doodknitwit
07-20-2007, 04:00 PM
where are the parents?

Silver
07-20-2007, 04:01 PM
I don't think you're a horrible person, but I think the death penalty is way too harsh. But I think the girls AND their parents should all be punished. There's NO way a 15 year old girl could do that if she had proper parents who taught their kids right from wrong. :!!!::!!!::!!!:

I am so disgusted that their parents probably will not get reprimanded. WTF is wrong with people??

auburnchick
07-20-2007, 05:00 PM
It sounds like they all (parents included) need counseling (in addition to time in juvey).

Carrie218
07-20-2007, 05:05 PM
My point is that there are far more important things in the world in which one can direct their energies. There are atrocities such as Darfur and female genital mutilation and this little thing about a war in the Middle East which is taking how many American lives? That so much time and energy is being expended on this issue is mind-boggling.

BostonBecca
07-20-2007, 05:08 PM
You just can't hold someone's parents criminally liable for the acts of their children.

They aren't civilly liable either.

That's just the law. I do also believe strongly in the belief that people are responsible for their own actions.

These parents might be liable for negligent supervision of their children if they knew of the child's violent tendencies and did not guard against it.

The children should be punished, but it isn't the parents' fault necessarily. Some children are going to do this kind of thing regardless of their parents.

Krystal
07-20-2007, 05:24 PM
I have no words for what happened to that poor cat. My heart just breaks, and makes me hug my babies closer... and all the more determined to adopt another...

but recently in my city there were 2 very awful stories close together. One of a cat being shot in the face with a pellet gun, (he's fine and adopted to a loving home now) and another of a puppy having his ears sawed off. (His name is now A.K and he lives very happy with his new owner too)

The dog story was the last straw. It really struck a cord withe evryone. Even people who say "it's just an animal" were saying stuff about it. Because the man was still allowed to KEEP his animal, according to current laws. (He, thankfully, relinquished his rights, tho he says he did not do it, he got the dog from someone, and his ears had already been cut) But it made them think about the laws, and now they are talking about changing them. They know the laws need to be stronger, and much more efficient. If you cut your kids ears off, you wouldn't see that kid ever again. Why should you get to take the puppy home?


And like you said, studies show murders start by harming animals, and the laws make it too easy for them to get started.


:(

Braden
07-20-2007, 05:29 PM
All right, they need life in prison. That's all. No special jail privelages, no nothing! Who could do a thing like that, to a poor kitten? When I saw the pic I cried. Just plain cried.

Jan in CA
07-20-2007, 05:33 PM
My point is that there are far more important things in the world in which one can direct their energies. There are atrocities such as Darfur and female genital mutilation and this little thing about a war in the Middle East which is taking how many American lives? That so much time and energy is being expended on this issue is mind-boggling.

I watch the news both local and CNN and I hardly thing there is a shortage of news about the middle east. Maybe less on Darfur, but those topics will be in the forefront for a long time, the kitty story will die in a few days or weeks. :shrug:

kblue
07-20-2007, 05:41 PM
No animal should be miss treated!!! I think that because they are animals some people think they diserve<--sp? less rights than humans. Thats a bunch of BS especially since a lot of people think of their pets as "family" their "babies" "loved ones". If those same girls had set a baby or small child or just any human being on fire thats it JAIL FOR LIFE.....DEATH PENALTY.

letah75
07-20-2007, 05:42 PM
You just can't hold someone's parents criminally liable for the acts of their children.

They aren't civilly liable either.

That's just the law. I do also believe strongly in the belief that people are responsible for their own actions.

These parents might be liable for negligent supervision of their children if they knew of the child's violent tendencies and did not guard against it.

The children should be punished, but it isn't the parents' fault necessarily. Some children are going to do this kind of thing regardless of their parents.


Actually, in California parents can be held civilly responsible for their childrens criminal actions. Additionally, under the truancy laws in California the parents can be held criminally liable for their child's failure to attend school. A minor's parents can be criminally charged with a misdemeanor, and placed in the county jail.

Parents are held equally responsible for their minor childs Court fines and fees, and their restitution. The Courts will go after the parents if they do not pay. They are also responsible to pay the cost of juvenile hall time and group home expense (if their minor child is sent to one). Now the Court will also convert a minor's fines/fees and restution into a civil judgement if it has not been paid in full by their 18th birthday, and will go after the child's (now adult's) wages and tax refunds.

I think that this is horrible, and disgusting, but living in the Bay Area you read/see/deal with daily 3+ murders a night. Teenagers killing one another, gang raping one another, random shooting, strangelings, a teen girl who slit the throat of an elderly woman as she was walking in a botanical garden, etc. The San Francisco/Oakland Bay Area is violence filled. It is terrible when you can't leave your home after a certian time at night because of the violence.

While I am an animal lover, owner, advocate, it gets often time frustrating when this is on the news day in and day out, and the constant shooting, stabbings, rapes, etc. are reported as "ho hum, that's the norm folks". The mayor of S.F. says "we've got a handle on the violence" and there are three fatal shootings in S.F. that day.

I can't tell you how many friends I have lost to shooting, or stabbings etc. over the years. Living in the Bay is a constant struggle between high culture and the living dead.

These girls are demented and deranged, they have some SERIOUS problems and need HELP. But there are so many damaged minors out there, that see this violence every day! I've seen I don't know how many people shot, beaten half to death. Not because I put myself into those situations, but because of where I live. I've dodged bullets myself, because I was in the wrong place and the wrong time. I think that is where the frustration comes from. On New Year's eve, we could NEVER go out of the house because of people shooting guns in the air. Growing up, I don't think I knew one kid who didn't carry a gun for protection.

When you live in a place like that with constant violence, and a lack of respect for life, it's hard to see this being the huge issue that it is. When you stop crying when your friends die, and your first reaction is to shrug your shoulders and say "that sucks". Then go on with your life, there are more important things.

Not that this shouldn't be a story, or reported on, it should. But it should also be reported nationally, that our kids are killing our kids, our murder rate never goes down, and toddlers know how to duck when bullets start wizzing by.

auburnchick
07-20-2007, 05:45 PM
You just can't hold someone's parents criminally liable for the acts of their children.

They aren't civilly liable either.

That's just the law. I do also believe strongly in the belief that people are responsible for their own actions.


I respectfully disagree with you.

Here's what a quick google search helped me find from this (http://mesh.medill.northwestern.edu/mnschicago/archives/1999/05/murder_victims.html) site:

"Currently, all 50 states have laws holding parents civilly liable for their children's crimes. Illinois' Parental Responsibility Law, which was passed in 1969, holds each parent liable for up to $2,500 for "willful and malicious acts" committed by their children, such as property damage and theft. The law also requires parents to supervise their children to prevent them from hurting others."


I think that parents should be held responsible, in some way, for their children's actions. In the state of Florida, parents are responsible for their children's driving habits until the child is 21. I found that out recently when my daughter got her permit. We have the right to revoke their suspend their driving privileges by writing a letter to the state of Florida explaining that we choose not to sponsor our child.

BostonBecca
07-20-2007, 06:16 PM
I should have been more clear. What I meant to say was that parents are not generally liable under the common law for their children's torts. Mass holds parents civilly liable for their childrens' intentional torts up to 5k based on statutory liability (and that is based on my memory from studying this past week, if it's wrong, please tell me). That's it however.

I was trying to be quick and I didn't state that these are the general rules with the limited exceptions for low amounts. In many of these instances, what the news doesn't tell you, is that the parent is being held liable for negligent supervision of the child leading to the commission of the tort, in essence, they are liable not for the child's acts, but for their failure to supervise. That's where they can really get the parent, and I think that's the right way. I don't think parents should be generally liable on their children's torts, but should be liable if they were not supervising their child properly. Its' not the parents' fault if they are doing what they should and the child decides to do something wrong like this anyways.

BostonBecca
07-20-2007, 06:18 PM
The CA criminal statute is not the norm, as far as I know, for the criminal liability side of things. That's pretty interesting, from a legal standpoint.

letah75
07-20-2007, 06:35 PM
The CA criminal statute is not the norm, as far as I know, for the criminal liability side of things. That's pretty interesting, from a legal standpoint.


Few of California's laws are the norm :lol:. I actually work in the juvenile criminal justice system and see this sort of thing on a regular basis.

We have had quite a few parents taken to jail over their minor child's truancy issues. Additionally, the parents are responsible for the minor's fines/fees and restitution as I stated before. The cost for our juvenile hall is (I believe) $15.00 per day. This doesn't begin to cover the actual costs, but it helps. Additionally, the parent is responsible for the public defender fees, as well as any additional Court costs.

When a restitution fine is joint and several, both the minors and their parents are responsible for the cost.

In fact years ago, one of the minors I was working with keyed my car. I didn't see any money, until that minor turned 18. He recieved a large sum of money from a car accident settlement. Since the Court had gone after the minor civilly they attached his settlement, and all of his restitiution fines were paid first, then he received what was left over. In that situation, the minor's parent had no money, however, the Court did attach his father's tax refund in order to recoup the cost of the Court costs and juvenile hall stays.

As a general rule, the Court will go after the parent for fines/fees and Court costs, and then file civilly on the minor when they turn 18 years of age. Additionally, minors can be kept on juvenile probation until they are 21 years old in the state of California. If those fees/fines/restitution aren't paid, the probation departments can request the Court not release the minor's probation.

There are a lot of wacky laws concerning children and crimes in California. There is a case down south where a mother is being prosecuted for driving her teen son and his friends to the park so they could murder a 14 year old boy. Now in this case the mother participated by driving the minor's to the crime sceen.

Unfortunately, there are many bad parents out there. Crime is generational. We have a family where I live, that I called the jail to get time credits, and they had time credits for the great-grandpa, the grandpa, the father and the youngest (all of whom shared a name). The family had been in and out of jail since 1903.

I do have to add however, there are parents, who do their best, do a good job, and their children are JUST BAD/DAMAGED whatever you want to call it. I will conceed children who demonstrate this behavior are often a product of their environment, but not always.

Kids with problems like these girls have also often seek each other out. There are two very different classes of juveniles in the world. While these girls are very definately the minority, I'll tell you in the 8 years I've been working where I work and the two years prior to that I worked in criminal defense, the crimes that are being committed by our young people (especially the girls) are escalating in viciousness and callousness. We ain't in Kansas anymore people.

LibraryLady
07-20-2007, 06:39 PM
Thank you, letah75, for the work you do to keep our system running. It must be tremendously difficult to work in that environment.

:hug::muah::hug::muah:

LL

Silver
07-20-2007, 06:48 PM
Its' not the parents' fault if they are doing what they should and the child decides to do something wrong like this anyways.
If a parent is doing what they should, their child just DOES NOT go around torturing animals. These girls' parents did miss the boat on some portion of their parenting, if not most of it. Part of being a responsible parent is teaching your kids that abusing others is wrong, whether they are people or animals. And quite frankly, I think that is a very basic lesson that one should teach their young. Since these girls found it not only ok, but enjoyable to torture a cat, I would say that their parents most certainly were negligent in how they have raised their kids in at least this respect, but most likely in many other respects as well. And they should therefore be held responsible.

I am by no means a gung ho animal rights activist, but I do believe in treating animals with love and kindness. Heck, my kids even capture spiders and carry them outside instead of squashing them. I am sickened by the acts of those girls. If I were their parent, I would be disgraced at my own failures.

letah75
07-20-2007, 07:08 PM
Thank you, letah75, for the work you do to keep our system running. It must be tremendously difficult to work in that environment.

:hug::muah::hug::muah:

LL

I actually adore working with these kids! I think because of my background, where I grew up, and what I've seen in my life, I understand these kids. In fact at one point I wanted to be a teacher, but realized that I just don't get "normal" kids. :shrug:

So many of these kids are damaged, but not irreperably so. I've seen some of THE MOST DAMAGED kids turn it around, and buck their upbringing. I've also seen some kids with the best parents and oppertunities just say "F*&K it all" and go so far down the wrong path that there is no fixing them.

I truely believe working with these kids is as much of a calling as say being a priest. You either "get it" or you don't. It can be difficult at time, but WOW, when you get rewarded, you get REWARDED!

These kids are where my heart is. I've worked with adults too, and I like it, but the kids....well I love the kids. The best part is when you can teach them how to be kids.

BostonBecca
07-20-2007, 07:47 PM
That's great Letah, the world needs more people like you who work every day with these kids and strive to be good role models, and a support system for them.

I did some work representing juveniles in Boston Juvenile Court in law school as a public defender and it was one of the most challenging and rewarding and sometimes frustrating experiences of my life. I truly respect those people who are actually out there every day being a support and trying to help these kids, many of whom who just have not had a break.

Chel
07-20-2007, 09:42 PM
This story makes me just as sick now as it did when I first read it. Honestly, I didn't meant to start any debates here. I am just nauseous about this poor kitten... I mean there are many ways to die. But to be tortured, and have someone take pleasure in that is beyond comprehension to me.

I doubt counceling would help these girls. You don't just gleefully torture animals one day and be a model citizen the next. At 15, you definitely know right from wrong. How many 15 year olds do you know who baby sit? A year away from joining the workforce, a year away from their drivers licenses. They are old enough to know better.

Even if these kids had really bad lives, it doesn't relieve them of their responsibilty. How many child molesters say they did it because they themselves were molested? How does that make them less culpable? They still commited the acts themselves. Not only with emotional detachment, but with forethought and planning. Lack of empathy for victims is a huge mark of serial killers, as is torturing animals. These girls exhibit the markings of both.

Letah, God bless you for the work you do, giving kids a chance and showing them there is something better, something more than what they have known.

marykz
07-21-2007, 02:04 PM
hugs for you Chel- that whole story is just so sad.(and you are not crazy- just sensitive and caring.) this just makes me feel ill. As does all the other bad news in the world. I'm turning the TV to cartoons all day for a while....

Knitting_Guy
07-21-2007, 08:12 PM
This sort of thing, along with the Darfur situation and pretty much everything else going on in the world, just supports my own belief that as a species we human beings are a sick and twisted lot and are without question the most violent and destructive species on the planet.

And people wonder why the aliens choose to not make contact with us. I wouldn't either.

sugarfunpouch
07-21-2007, 08:30 PM
How mean! OMG!!!!!!!! You are not at all mean or horrible or anything :hug: :hug:

Braden
07-22-2007, 12:41 AM
Silver - I totally agree. I'm not saying that it's the parent's fault entirely, but they sure could have done a lot to prevent it! Another thing you're right about - If a parent does their job right, than kids don't go around setting kittens on fire just for the heck of it!! But, on another note - If the girls had any sense of decency, they wouldn't set a cat on fire and laugh about it! Talk about sick and twisted. I personally don't see how anyone could just torture a kitten! A little, defenseless kitten. I can't help it, but it makes me plain mad.

mulene
07-23-2007, 01:03 PM
This sort of thing, along with the Darfur situation and pretty much everything else going on in the world, just supports my own belief that as a species we human beings are a sick and twisted lot and are without question the most violent and destructive species on the planet.

And people wonder why the aliens choose to not make contact with us. I wouldn't either.


agree. sigh. When I saw the pics... that poor creature =(

Luvmyrottnboy
07-23-2007, 01:09 PM
And just to add to this...we have laws against rape, murder, robbery etc. Not that justice always gets done but that's another post...

But our animal cruelty laws definitely need beefing up. As do our animal control laws.

Stories like this illustrate that need quite clearly.

ekgheiy
07-23-2007, 01:46 PM
Here is the story-it includes a pic of the cat.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289880,00.html

I feel horrible saying these girls should get the death penalty. I feel that way because it would be horrible for thier parents and the rest of their family. But thats the only reason.
Don't feel horrible for saying so. Why should you feel horrible?!? They obviously don't deserve the sentiment. I for one think the death penalty is good for them. Personally, I think someone should relentless beat the $h!t out of their dumb asses with metal baseball ball. I also think their parent to meet an a$$ kicking just for good measure !!!!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_165_3.gif

ekgheiy
07-23-2007, 01:54 PM
This sort of thing, along with the Darfur situation and pretty much everything else going on in the world, just supports my own belief that as a species we human beings are a sick and twisted lot and are without question the most violent and destructive species on the planet.

And people wonder why the aliens choose to not make contact with us. I wouldn't either.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_165_4.gif

panchita
07-23-2007, 02:13 PM
I live in the area where the kitty--named Adam, now--was burned. The local paper has posted some pictures of his in his recovery.. (http://www.pressdemocrat.com/Gallery/template.cfm?GalleryID=204) in case you're interested. Here's a link to one of the articles about it as well. (http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070624/NEWS/706240391&SearchID=73288040162119)

It's really scary to think that something this horrific can happen 2 miles from my house.

:cry:

P.S. I found another article (http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070720/NEWS/707200346&SearchID=73288040862687) about little Adam's recovery. It says that last week the two girls were "charged with felony animal cruelty, a crime that carries with it a maximum penalty of three years confinement." Not enough, IMO.

Kaydee
07-23-2007, 02:17 PM
Ugh, looking at those pictures makes me even more sick, the poor kitty is so cute. I always wonder how someone could want to hurt an animal or baby/child. Its horrible.

nik
07-23-2007, 03:18 PM
That's awful! I don't understand what's wrong with people.

It does make me happy though to hear people so for animal rights. Being a vegetarian makes me sometimes feel like I'm the only person in the world that thinks animals have a right to live. (Including cows, chickens, pigs, and fish)

feministmama
07-23-2007, 04:01 PM
My point is that there are far more important things in the world in which one can direct their energies. There are atrocities such as Darfur and female genital mutilation and this little thing about a war in the Middle East which is taking how many American lives? That so much time and energy is being expended on this issue is mind-boggling.

I think what these girls did is a symptom of atrocities like Darfur. If we live in a society that can produce girls who do this then it's not much a leap to think something like Darfur can happen. I think violence is all the same violence. We need to look at why a young girl in the US would do something like that to a cat in the same way we should be asking ourselves why do we (and by we I mean every human being on the planet) can allow something like Darfur to happen. I think it's beyond parents being responsible for children. I think we all (humans) are responsible for each other. I don't think we are born bad either. I think we have the capacity to be good and bad. You have to ask yourself which is more promoted? Which way of life can make more money (videos, movies, etc) and which one are you are a part of?

ekgheiy
07-23-2007, 04:10 PM
I think violence is all the same violence. Good point. One's suffering is no greater or less than another's; pain is pain and torture is torture, no matter the victim. It's just flat-out wrong to do some stupid @^%# like that!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_19.gif

gamerchik
07-23-2007, 07:57 PM
I absolutely HATE hearing about stuff like this; I'm very sensitive about animals being abused. In fact, I have been a vegetarian for 12 years, simply because I am opposed to factory farming (not against eating meat, but am against factory farming). That's another whole topic though, and I'm not the type to get preachy.

In any case, I'm infuriated about this story. I don't understand how people can do such things -- to animals or to fellow humans. It's disgusting.

panchita
08-04-2007, 08:52 PM
Little Adam continues to have surgery and is recovering from his trauma. If you'd like to read more, our local paper is still following the story. (http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20070804/NEWS/708040333/1033/NEWS01) The international outpouring of support is really lovely to read about. Too bad something awful had to happen for so many people to start noticing the plight of feral cats.

Quiltlady
08-05-2007, 10:04 AM
You aren't horrible at all. Thats terrible what they did. I won't read or see the picture because just reading this thread was upsetting enough. I hope they do spend some time in jail.

I don't think its fair to blame the parents. Parents are not responsible for what their children do unless its been a horrible case of child abuse etc. Most "average" teens make their own choices and many are NOT the choices their parents would want for them.

Raspberry61
08-07-2007, 04:10 PM
What a horrific crime! I will never ever in a million years understand how anyone could be cruel to a defenseless animal. They are God's creatures and I have always had a very deep love for all animals. These girls are obviously very ill. I agree that they should be punished for this crime, but the death penalty is way too harsh in this case. I do believe they should get lots of therapy. They need it. The parents should not be punished at all. They had nothing to do with this. I get tired of people always blaming the parents when the kids screw up. Parents can not always control what their kids do no matter how much they love and discipline them. If anything my sympathy goes out to the parents. And of course that precious little kitten.

Rorshach
08-08-2007, 07:40 PM
Personally, I'm of the belief to trade eyes for eyes and so on. Of course, that would go along great with Mason's belief that we're a sick and twisted lot. but I can't see torturing an animal or any other type of creature as "Fun" After all, those girls wouldn't care to be set on fire themselves. There is just no excuse for something of that nature, none.