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Mike
04-08-2009, 03:07 PM
HR 875 the bill to ban home gardening

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.875:

I've had problems linking bills from the government so you may have to go to http://thomas.loc.gov and search the bill number to see the text for yourself.
You definitely have to do that if you want to see who the cosponsors are.

(8) CATEGORY 4 FOOD ESTABLISHMENT- The term `category 4 food establishment' means a food establishment that processes all other categories of food products not described in paragraphs (5) through (7).
So pretty much anything they want to say is a food establishment is.

(13) FOOD ESTABLISHMENT-

(A) IN GENERAL- The term `food establishment' means a slaughterhouse (except those regulated under the Federal Meat Inspection Act or the Poultry Products Inspection Act), factory, warehouse, or <U>facility owned or operated by a person located in any State that processes food</U> or a facility that holds, stores, or transports food or food ingredients.

(B) EXCLUSIONS- For the purposes of registration, the term `food establishment' does not include a food production facility as defined in paragraph (14), restaurant, other retail food establishment, nonprofit food establishment in which food is prepared for or served directly to the consumer, or fishing vessel (other than a fishing vessel engaged in processing, as that term is defined in section 123.3 of title 21, Code of Federal Regulations).

No exclusion for "personal use", hmmmm.
So much for my idea of selling my overflow of apples.

Jan in CA
04-08-2009, 04:11 PM
Too much to read there right now. Can you sell them to a B&B maybe or some private establishment like that?

OffJumpsJack
04-08-2009, 04:20 PM
(B) EXCLUSIONS- For the purposes of registration, the term `food establishment' does not include a food production facility as defined in paragraph (14), restaurant, other retail food establishment, nonprofit food establishment in which food is prepared for or served directly to the consumer, or fishing vessel (other than a fishing vessel engaged in processing, as that term is defined in section 123.3 of title 21, Code of Federal Regulations).

(14) FOOD PRODUCTION FACILITY- The term `food production facility' means any farm, ranch, orchard, vineyard, aquaculture facility, or confined animal-feeding operation.

That is if you have an orchard. How big is an orchard? Is one tree an orchard? Must you have two or more? Quick go plant more seedlings if needed.

I didn't read further to see if they also have regulations for "food production facility" being "any farm, ranch, orchard, vineyard, aquaculture facility, or confined animal-feeding operation."

Well, I feed my dog and confine him to the house or yard. Granted I don't plan on processing my dog for food, but you never know how bad the economy may get... :) :oops: Bad joke. I know. :roll:

I see what you mean about the cosponsors. None from PA or NC

Food Safety Administration within the Department of Health and Human Services

Really, do we need another administration? What's wrong with fixing what we have under the "Food and Drug Administration" ?

That at least recognizes that food can be viewed as drugs since they can have a mood altering effect on us either through over indulgence or absence.

Mike
04-08-2009, 04:20 PM
Sales aren't the issue, even personal use will be banned just like the way they worded the knitting ban didn't exempt Grandma knitting for her grandkid.
I wouldn't even be able to grow my apples for myself without submitting them for inspection if following the word of the law.

But once my neighbor gets his privacy fence up nobody would know, I just wouldn't be able to sit out at the end of my driveway selling bushels of apples.
Selling to a business would also be banned.

I was skeptical when I was only hearing about it on talk radio (which I only hear in passing, but I pass often enough that things like this catch my ear) and on forums but I never got the bill number so I could read it for myself.

I figured they were all being paranoid, certainly it would have an exemption for personal use and exempt people like my great niece picking up some summer money with a vegetable stand.
Now I got the bill number and it doesn't.

Mike
04-08-2009, 04:27 PM
That is if you have an orchard. How big is an orchard? I one tree an orchard? Two?

I didn't read further to see if they also have regulations for "food production facility" being "any farm, ranch, orchard, vineyard, aquaculture facility, or confined animal-feeding operation."

Well, I feed my dog and confine him to the house or yard. Granted I don't plan on processing my dog for food, but you never know how bad the economy may get... :) :oops: Bad joke. I know. :roll:


They're called home orchards. I would say one tree would be "any orchard".

I have 9 fruit trees, 2 grape vines, a strawberry patch and a very productive garden.
More trees may be in my future if I can figure out where to squeeze them in.

I'd say I'm an orchard by any definition.
I would say some of the people who have the 1-10 acre yards on the orcharding forum I go to would also qualify.

saracidaltendencies
04-08-2009, 10:02 PM
There's a LOT to read and I did read some, but, I'm still not sure...are they wanting to ban "home gardening" or just make it so that if you have a garden/orchard/farm/etc. and plan on distributing your goods, you have to register your "establishment" and in turn be susceptible to inspections?

Debkcs
04-09-2009, 02:50 AM
Who banned knitting? I'm lost. The food bill ticks me off, just who the heck are they to say that I can't sell or give away my extra tomatoes? If this passed, we'd have to stop taking food to shut-ins in our church. REALLY!

Mike
04-09-2009, 11:58 AM
There's a LOT to read and I did read some, but, I'm still not sure...are they wanting to ban "home gardening" or just make it so that if you have a garden/orchard/farm/etc. and plan on distributing your goods, you have to register your "establishment" and in turn be susceptible to inspections?
Did they want to ban granny from selling baby blankets on Etsy? But they did. (Did they ever fix that part or just the charity donations?)
Did they want to burst into a preachers house without serving a warrant because of the "war on drugs"? But they did.
Did they want to confiscate innocent people's property with no due process, also for the "war on drugs? But they did.
Did they want to imprison innocent US citizens without a trial with "patriot act"? But they did (or so that's the claim, I haven't seen any proof of that happening YET).

How long are we going to excuse the government writing laws that give them these powers with the promise they don't want to use them? Is it all because of party loyalty?

Many of these politicians are lawyers and know the meanings of words, especially a word as simple as "all". They are supposed to be the best and brightest.
I think we would be safe to assume they know exactly what they are writing. It would be very simple to put a dollar limit on the amount you can sell before you're subject to inspection or to exempt "personal use". Yet they don't. Why?

It's not about what they want to do, even if they honestly don't want to do it.
It could be 5 years or 20 years but eventually someone could come along and regulate gardening out of existence the way these are written.

And they couldn't even send storm troopers to everyone's gardens, but they could pick a few people to make examples out of.

Who banned knitting? I'm lost. The food bill ticks me off, just who the heck are they to say that I can't sell or give away my extra tomatoes? If this passed, we'd have to stop taking food to shut-ins in our church. REALLY!

Charities are exempt.

The knitting ban was a topic a while back, The Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act. It's not specifically about knitting.
Since I don't usually make items for kids and don't sell anything it wasn't much of an issue for me.

MoniDew
04-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Terrifying! It's the only word that describes what this legislation really represents.

If you are not licensed by law to produce food, using specific and strictly controlled sources, (and that last phrase is the key to this whole thing,) you can be arrested. In other words, you must use their seeds, their foods, etc. to produce your goods. You must be licensed to do so, because their seeds/foods are patented. They will arrest you for patent infringement if you are not licensed, yet still using their seeds/foods - believe me, you can be and not even know it! And they will arrest you/sue you out of existence if you refuse to use what they supply, whether by choice of conscience or by accident.

I garden because organics are important to me. Protecting my & my family's health, as well as contributing to the overall wellbeing of the soils, water, and air, is a part of who I am as a human being.

But we are dealing with HUGE agra-industrial giants here who want absolute power (WORLD DOMINATION) of the food supply! Remember: Power Corrupts; and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely!

These powers (Monsanto, Dow, Dupont, Kraft, General Mills, etc) are deeply and incestuously imbedded in our government on all ends of the political spectrum. Have been, for decades!

To them, this is not about party politics. This is about power & control. He who controls the foods supply runs the world! Imagine being able to control entire populations of people by either supplying, or withholding food! This issue will not go away overnight - if ever!

What is worse, they've already INTENTIONALLY whittled down the world's population by the use of known carcinogens in the food supply. The major chemical giants (Monsanto, Dow, Dupont, etc) and the food giants they supply (Kraft, General Mills, etc) have done more to cause the 50% cancer rates in this country than any other source. Inspite of all their "marketing" to the contrary, they are NOT HEROES, supplying the world with "food." They are murderers, pure and simple, and should be treated as such.

The only option is guerilla gardening! Until they lock up my organic @$$, I'm going to keep preventing cancer statistics from rising, fight these monsters until I die!

Inflammatory words?! YES! But this is a MAJOR, hot-button issue. And it is so little-known. I welcome the opportunity to speak on it! Thank you!

saracidaltendencies
04-09-2009, 12:21 PM
Did they want to ban granny from selling baby blankets on Etsy? But they did. (Did they ever fix that part or just the charity donations?)
Did they want to burst into a preachers house without serving a warrant because of the "war on drugs"? But they did.
Did they want to confiscate innocent people's property with no due process, also for the "war on drugs? But they did.
Did they want to imprison innocent US citizens without a trial with "patriot act"? But they did (or so that's the claim, I haven't seen any proof of that happening YET).

How long are we going to excuse the government writing laws that give them these powers with the promise they don't want to use them? Is it all because of party loyalty?

Many of these politicians are lawyers and know the meanings of words, especially a word as simple as "all". They are supposed to be the best and brightest.
I think we would be safe to assume they know exactly what they are writing. It would be very simple to put a dollar limit on the amount you can sell before you're subject to inspection or to exempt "personal use". Yet they don't. Why?

It's not about what they want to do, even if they honestly don't want to do it.
It could be 5 years or 20 years but eventually someone could come along and regulate gardening out of existence the way these are written.

And they couldn't even send storm troopers to everyone's gardens, but they could pick a few people to make examples out of.


I'm not excusing the government and I'm not saying this bill is fair or just, I just didn't read enough of it to determine if it's an actual ban they are wanting to impose or if they're, at least for now, just trying to force people to register their gardens/orchards/farms so they can be inspected?

If people (such as individuals who garden for private use) don't register a home garden, are they going to be forced to eliminate their garden and possibly pay a fine or serve jail time?

LilHuskiesFootBallMom
04-09-2009, 12:47 PM
we'll see how far this one goes...

and if i feel like giving the extra produce from my garden to my inlaws or people in my tribe they can go ahead and try to stop me... the head of our tribe is a NYC attourney.

Mike
04-09-2009, 02:32 PM
I agree, MoniDew.
I don't know if it was a similar bill or this bill but I've read that one says if you use heirloom seeds you will be a criminal. Organic gardening would not pass inspection (I don't know how that would work but since the other parts of the paranoia were founded I'm giving the benefit of doubt to the rest, I would guess that you either have to be organic according to organic produce definitions, which most homes couldn't pass and wouldn't pay to pass or you have to be chemical).

I think all these bills, whether it's regulating the home crafter out of business, regulating gardening out of existence or regulating anyone but Phillip Morris out of tobacco by giving it to the FDA for approval is big government that is owned by big corporations protecting their business interests. Even the SCHIP tobacco tax was aimed at hurting the small guy and protecting the big ones.

We may not seem like much of a threat but I buy an extremely small amount of fruits and vegetables through the year because I grow my own. Take my few hundred dollars and all the other gardeners and add in the people like my great niece who manage to sell a hundred dollars worth to even more people and it all adds up to be major competition that the big corporations aren't profiting from.

And if anyone thinks the government isn't aimed at stopping home fruit growers, Imidan is very effective against Plum Curculio, even my organic books say you're out of luck against that pest other than barriers.
The FDA removed Imidan from being allowed for home use. Yet farms can spray it not only on plants but on livestock.
What they have approved for Plum Curculio for home use varies from absolutely not effective and shouldn't list that insect to barely effective.
Run off protecting the water supply? No, more runoff comes from farms and Permethryn is a somewhat effective spray that is allowed (but not on apples at a time when it is effective, figure that one out) and it is very bad for water supplies.

Don't get me wrong, Demonica. I was going on a rant not necessarily aimed at you ;)
I didn't read far enough to see the penalties yet, I just found the definitions that included the 9 trees in my yard even if I keep them strictly for personal use.
They have no business telling me how to grow food any more than they have business coming in my house and telling me how to cook.
Even if I sell my fruit at my driveway or sell cupcakes at a bake sale, if someone doesn't trust unregulated food they can simply avoid buying from me.

saracidaltendencies
04-09-2009, 03:27 PM
What really gets me about this whole thing is: hasn't it been the big companies we've been hearing about circulating contaminated foods??

I read just the other day that Kraft and Frito-Lay recalled some products because of possible salmonella. The pistachios, I think...And, the big 'ol contamination case at Peanut Corporation of America...And apparently, the products were sent out despite managers knowing the stuff was tainted! Also, wasn't it either them, or a "sister" plant that wasn't even licensed and still providing peanut products on a large scale?

Shouldn't the pressure be on the FDA to catch these things and get rid of employees who totally slacked rather than coming down on the "little guys"? How about a total re-vamp of the FDA??

Hell, I'd trust food I'd get from my local farm far more than what I buy in the store! Unfortunately that farm isn't too close to me.

Even at my daughter's school, if there's a class party, parents can't bring in homemade foods they have to be pre-packaged foods...Well, um, all the contaminated foods I've read about were pre-packaged!

It makes me wonder, also, if my mom and dad would have to get rid of their apple tree? The tree was planted before my mom and dad bought their house, years ago, and we had no idea it was an apple tree until just recently, when it started producing apples. So we figured, hey, free apples! Our family stock piled apples and didn't have to buy store bought apples at all last summer...And, the apples were delicious! Much better than store bought apples!

I'm very cautious in how much I "trust" in government and believe government should have minimal interference in people's personal lives...To say someone can't have a private garden is completely overstepping boundaries especially when we're not seeing these contamination issues coming from small scale home gardens!

I just wonder what the ramifications are and if there are any exemptions for people who don't sell their produce on a large scale, or even sell at all; such as my mom and dad who were surprised with an apple tree years after they bought their house.

It isn't the un-regulated foods I've read about being so dangerous, it's the regulated foods...

That's why I was curious if it was an actual ban. Though I don't necessarily agree with even just making people register for inspection, I can understand the purpose of it IF that person plans on selling/distributing on a larger scale, NOT, however if that person plans on giving away/selling their foods from the end of their driveway.

Arielluria
04-09-2009, 04:39 PM
I heard about this, it's big brother and big government trying to control what we do even just in our own gardens for ourselves! On a somewhat related note, I tried to buy something to acidify the soil (aluminum sulfate) which I use every year on our oranges, lemons and hydrangeas and they won't sell it anymore (I went to Lowe's) because it could be a substance used for making explosives.

When will government realize they can't legislate morality?!? Did any law ever keep someone from doing the wrong thing? No! It's their own moral or religious belief system as well as their conscience which does so!

Pretty soon they'll ban fire!:nails:

Mike
04-09-2009, 05:08 PM
What really gets me about this whole thing is: hasn't it been the big companies we've been hearing about circulating contaminated foods??
Exactly, and those big companies only buy from other big companies.
They wouldn't buy my apples because the bushel or two I'd sell wouldn't make dent in their production numbers so they would have no consistency buying from home growers.
I'm also left wondering why they would need a new branch of the FDA to inspect the large businesses. They already have the ability to inspect food production at every level between the FDA, the EPA and Ag Dept.

As you can imagine going by your parents tree, once my 7 apple trees start producing, in a very good year I'm going to have way too many apples to use myself. I have figured out (after I ordered the 4 new trees) that last year's good year with just 3 trees gave me enough apple pie, apple sauce, apple cider and fresh apples that I am fairly well sick of eating apples.
Even if I don't sell the apples I'll be giving them away to strangers (I already figure I'll be giving bushels away to friends and family).
I know my 2 cherries will out produce my ability to use them because I've had the same trees before and ended up calling people to come pick their own if they wanted or else the birds could take what they wanted.


Arielluria, try a nursery. My Walmart won't sell me denatured alcohol and acetone at the same time because of meth labs, but the hardware store will.
I think I saw aluminum sulfate when I was buying my grapes and Henry Fields still has it.

MoniDew
04-10-2009, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately, there is so much more going on here than meets the eye. It's not as basic as, "Monsanto doesn't like organics." Or, "Monsanto doesn't want people growing their own food."

What they like/want is power & control.

Several years ago, laws allowing the patenting of genetics were put into effect. At that time, Monsanto began patenting the genetics of food crops. Monsanto began buying up and patenting the genetics of the food crops of the world, in all its biodiversity, and locking up these seeds in a vault under the arctic circle. 12,000+ food crops, as of this time, that if you or I were to plant without licensing or permission of Monsanto, we would be committing patent infringement.

And don't think they haven't enforced this! Subsistence farmers around the world have been sued off their family homes and lands of generations because of accidental "patent infringement."

That is just one of the issues. The reason Monsanto wants gene-patenting laws (they are who lobbied for and won the rights) is so they can genetically engineer food crops.

Genetic engineering is NOT the same thing as the good ol' hybridization and general cross-breading with which we are all familiar, and which has been practiced for hundreds of years by generations of farmers and gardeners.

Monsanto engages in genetic engineering of food crops for several reasons. One is to implant a terminator gene - a gene which will not allow the saving of seed from one season for replanting in the next - a practice that has occurred since time began. This forces the farmers of the world to RE-BUY seed every year, increasing Monsanto's profits. But that is the SMALLEST of the reasons why they engage in this practice.

Monsanto also genetically engineers food crops as a way to splice pesticides INTO the nuclei of the cells of various seeds. The resulting plant that grows from that seed carries that trait with it. As of this moment, every single cell of Monsanto corn is registered as a pesticide. Since they control the market on corn around the world, every corn-related product now on the grocery store shelf contains this pesticide. I'll resist the urge to go into the human health violation this represents. But I will go into the environmental impact of Monsanto's BT corn.

When subsistence farmers in third world countries are shopping for cheap corn to plant, they turn to the United States as their supplier. Monsanto offers this product extremely inexpensively to get it out into the world. Subsistence farmers unknowingly plant this corn, as they have done for generations, alongside wild corn belts because they know that cross-pollination from wild corn stands makes their crops acclimatize to their location (longitude, latitude, altitude, weather, etc.) Now, traits of the genetically engineered corn also cross-pollinate with the wild stands of corn. Monsanto then sends researchers into the wild stands to "find their genes." Because Monsanto owns the patent on these genes, they now "own" the crossed-with-wild-corn, too. Another one for the vault! POWER!

And, in a twist of evil genius, Monsanto also patents the genes of things that are resistant to Monsanto products. A Monsanto researcher found a bacteria growing inside the tanks used to store Round-Up, the most popular herbicide in the world. They genetically engineer this Round-Up resistant bacteria into soy, rape seed (canola oil) and wheat crops. Why? So they can crop dust millions of acres of farmland with Round-Up and kill EVERY LIVING THING except for their intended crop. Millions of acres of farmland are now under Monsanto's TOTAL CONTROL!

Of course, blow-over from a neighboring farm of Monsanto seeds into YOUR farm occurs. And when Monsanto finds its genes on your land they'll swoop in and take your home/land/farm, etc, no matter how many generations of your family have lived on it. A farmer in Canada lost 5 generations of family land because Monsanto rapeseed blew over onto his land. He couldn't kill it, because it was Round-Up resistant. That's how they found it.

Right now, there is a migration of formerly subsistence farmers occurring in third-world countries. They are now homeless wanderers and refugees, who were once able to take care of themselves and their families, all thanks to Monsanto's tactics.

So as you can see, backyard farmers, organic/heirloom gardeners, pose no threat to such a giant as Monsanto. They'll just take away that right by exercising their total domination. He who controls the food controls the world. What they are threatened by is anyone's ability to feed themselves without Monsanto's seeds/products. Break their control and you break their power.

That's the core of this issue. And why we fight.

Again, thank you for this opportunity.

Mike
04-10-2009, 02:44 PM
I like the people who equate creating hybrids with genetic engineering pesticide or even BT into the food.

This bill and others like it are straight from the UN WHO. They will happily "teach" Africa how to garden, like they have never grown food before. What they are actually doing is teaching them to grow with companies like Monsanto.
Gardening is OK, as long as they get their cut.

Instead of some war lord denying food in Ethiopia or Somalia if the people won't do what they say it's a different war lord reserving that power.

Plantgoddess+
04-11-2009, 08:57 PM
I heard about this, it's big brother and big government trying to control what we do even just in our own gardens for ourselves! On a somewhat related note, I tried to buy something to acidify the soil (aluminum sulfate) which I use every year on our oranges, lemons and hydrangeas and they won't sell it anymore (I went to Lowe's) because it could be a substance used for making explosives.

When will government realize they can't legislate morality?!? Did any law ever keep someone from doing the wrong thing? No! It's their own moral or religious belief system as well as their conscience which does so!

Pretty soon they'll ban fire!:nails:
You would be better off using elemental sulfer or iron sulfate to acidify the soil for your plants. Aluminum sulfate can lead to a build up of heavy metals in your soil over time. Iron sulfate can leave rust stains on your clothes so be careful when using.
I use elemental sulfer for my blueberries and it helps keep my potatoes from developing scab.
My local garden center sells it in 1 and 5 lb bags.

Lighting57
04-12-2009, 04:19 PM
Sounds like we are moving toward a government system such as parts of the far east.

MoniDew
04-27-2009, 10:47 AM
Okay, this is the last post I'm going to make on this subject, I promise. The link below is to the Organic Consumers site. It's promoting their Millions Against Monsanto campaign. If this topic is of interest to you, please check it out.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monlink.cfm

Knitting_Guy
04-27-2009, 09:16 PM
Geez, big government and big business trying to squash the little guy? Tell me it isn't so! Who has heard of such a thing?

Mike
04-28-2009, 06:59 PM
Okay, this is the last post I'm going to make on this subject, I promise. The link below is to the Organic Consumers site. It's promoting their Millions Against Monsanto campaign. If this topic is of interest to you, please check it out.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monlink.cfm
From your link.
Percy Schmeiser is a farmer from Saskatchewan Canada, whose Canola fields were contaminated with Monsanto's genetically engineered Round-Up Ready Canola by pollen from a nearby farm. Monsanto says it doesn't matter how the contamination took place, and is therefore demanding Schmeiser pay their Technology Fee (the fee farmers must pay to grow Monsanto's genetically engineered products).

It's telling how Monsanto can contaminate crops they don't pay for or get paid to contaminate and the people who got contaminated are supposed to be the ones paying them.
It's been a while since I was into Organic Gardening news but from what I remember when we were all against GM foods the claim was we didn't have to worry about them cross-pollinating.

Since I've started spraying my apples I can see the benefits of using chemicals, but my land = my choice.