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Old 08-18-2007, 04:58 AM   #21
Limey
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Auburnchick

OK then, I'll ask you some questions:

Why was the puppy outdoors at night, in the first place?

If you knew your other dog was prone to digging a hole in a particular spot,why didn't you reinforce the area?

Why have you left a puppy in an unsecured garden?


I, too, have kept dogs all my life. At the front of my house is an extremely busy main road, half a block away is another busy road which leads on to the main one.

I have a 90ft garden, overlooking farmland at the back, where the farmer drives his 4 X 4, his tractors and this week, a combine harvester - so you can imagine that keeping my young dog secure in my garden is pretty high on my list of priorities.

I got Sam Pup when he was 12 weeks old, after he was found lost or just abandoned, wandering around busy streets on his own.

I can just imagine the reaction of the Labrador Rescue inspector, when she asked me if the garden was secure, if I'd said: 'Yes, but if he does start digging and can get out, I'll buy a shock collar. He'll soon learn ...'

Somehow, I don't think I'd have been allowed to adopt Sam.

The only safe way to keep a puppy in a garden is to supervise it and never leave it alone, especially when you think it might try to get out.
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Old 08-18-2007, 08:45 AM   #22
auburnchick
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Originally Posted by Limey View Post
Auburnchick

OK then, I'll ask you some questions:

Why was the puppy outdoors at night, in the first place?

If you knew your other dog was prone to digging a hole in a particular spot,why didn't you reinforce the area?

Why have you left a puppy in an unsecured garden?
Limey,

You need to re-read my post. It was morning. I was going to get ready for work and put the dogs out as I've done ever since I had them. The little one has always stayed in the yard. The hole was covered. I have a high fence with a gate that was secure. Dogs are smart and figure things out.

But you know what. I'm really not going to hash this out with you anymore. You are going to think what you want. I feel like you are personally attacking my choices. These choices are not bad choices, they are just not YOUR choices.

Somehow what was supposed to be a funny post turned into something not so funny.
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Old 08-18-2007, 08:52 AM   #23
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I think you will find there are two schools of thought on shock collars and electric fences. Personally I wouldn't use either but if used correctly I don't think they are necessarily cruel. Many folks in the US use them successfully...and I am sure, like anything else, there are boneheads using them.

The reasons I won't use them are this: (no judgement here, just MY reasons!) I think there are better ways to train...a shock collar is kind of a "cop out", dogs can get immune to the shock and ignore it and in the case of electric fences, they MAY (when prey drive in full gear dogs can easily blast through 'em) keep you dog in but they definitely WON'T keep anyone OUT.

In this case my advice would be to pour some concrete or otherwise reinforce the fence and/or just stay outside with the pup.
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Old 08-18-2007, 09:26 AM   #24
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This collar does train them because it first begins to beep as they approach the final boundary. The dogs get trained very quickly to go back as soon as they hear that beep.

The term "shock collar," which I used and really shouldn't have, is very negative. It's a wireless pet containment system (yeah, yeah...symantecs aside). Shock collar implies that as soon as they put it on, they are shocked. Or that I'm sitting in the house with a remote control that I'm using to shock them. This is not the case

THEY (the dogs) make the choice to leave the boundaries, and they are given an audible warning when they make this choice, with the beeps increasing in frequency with the duration of their stay in that area.

Trust me...the dogs KNOW they have to back up.

I've had this product for a few months now, and it is so much better than tying up my dogs outside. They still have plenty of room to run around and frolic with one another, unlike what a run or a lead would do.
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Old 08-18-2007, 09:50 AM   #25
Susan P.
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[quote=auburnchick;937625]Limey,

The little one has always stayed in the yard.

Did I quote correctly? I never seem to get this right.

Actually, you began your thread by saying the two dogs had played in a neighbour's yard for two days and came when called. Your neighbour must be a kind hearted soul.
I suspect this was a sign that the hole needed greater reinforcement. That doesn't mean filling in the hole. It means reinforcing it.

I know the retreat line on this threads is to say things were meant to be funny. I understand that. I hope you can also understand why an individual might not find some issues funny.

It's me who usually gets jumped on for not sharing a laugh and yet I think I display a pretty good sense of humour most of the time.

Shock collars on animals are actually illegal in parts of Australia and I respect and understand Limey's view on this because even the UK parliament has spoken out against their use. I suspect they are used as an easy replacement for busy people who don't have the time to train their dogs or to take them to training classes. This is one reason I don't have a dog, because I can't devote the time.

I respect what Limey said. Please try and accept that some of us are devoted to animal welfare (even if we currently don't own an animal) and can't, responsibly, find certain things funny. This is part and parcel of having a multi-cultural world and learning from others. Obviously there are different perspectives on animal welfare and what constitutes responsible ownership. I don't have any answers for how to soften a point of view on these matters. Should we not comment? Should posters begin to lay down rules? I hope the latter does not become a trend.
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Old 08-18-2007, 09:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by auburnchick View Post
This collar does train them because it first begins to beep as they approach the final boundary. The dogs get trained very quickly to go back as soon as they hear that beep.

The term "shock collar," which I used and really shouldn't have, is very negative. It's a wireless pet containment system (yeah, yeah...symantecs aside). Shock collar implies that as soon as they put it on, they are shocked. Or that I'm sitting in the house with a remote control that I'm using to shock them. This is not the case

THEY (the dogs) make the choice to leave the boundaries, and they are given an audible warning when they make this choice, with the beeps increasing in frequency with the duration of their stay in that area.

Trust me...the dogs KNOW they have to back up.

I've had this product for a few months now, and it is so much better than tying up my dogs outside. They still have plenty of room to run around and frolic with one another, unlike what a run or a lead would do.


Yes, these collars are very misunderstood. Tying dogs up is a very bad idea...good way to make them aggressisve. Given the choice it would be electronic collar!

I have no issues with someone like you using the collar because it is evident you know what you are doing.

I have a big, powerful dog with an undeserved reputation so my ideas on training are going to be different than someone who has a JRT or beagle!

ETA: No matter how well trained a dog is, there is no such thing as a "perfect" recall. This is especially true if a dog is born with a high prey drive. Anyone who lets a dog loose in a less than secure location take a big risk.
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Old 08-18-2007, 10:06 AM   #27
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All I can say is that I don't understand why a collar is required if a yard is fenced and dogs are trained and all holes are properly reinforced. And of course now the points Limey and I stated seemed moot if we're not talking about a shock collar at all.

People really empathised with Jan when she spoke about being scared when walking her little dog and a dog ran at them. Why was it considered funny that this dog was perhaps running around the street? Because it looks cute? I've seen friendly dogs come close to knocking an elderly person with a walking stick over - not because they are attacking, but because they are loose on the street and over exuberant.

And if a collar was available why wasn't it being used? Never mind, a rhetorical question.

Nothing replaces personal training or training classes *in my opinion*.

Have a nice weekend folks.
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Old 08-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #28
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Goodness! The funny part of the story was the retrieval of the dog. Y'all have managed to pull out one thing and totally turn it on me. I don't find disciplining a dog funny. It's work. And I am doing that work in many areas of my dog training (teaching them not to jump on people, housetraining, etc.). The collar is one tool in the yard training.

I have two collars. One collar's battery wasn't working, so I could not use it immediately on the little one. The other collar was working, so I thought if I put it on the older dog, and if he didn't go under the fence, the younger one would follow suit. The other collar apparently had a dead battery too. But the night before I found out, I had ordered new batteries (which arrived last night...two days!).

As you can see, I was trying. I had blocked the hole, and the dogs had not disturbed anything. Well, until the day before. Yes, maybe I could have filled it in better. Forgive me for being too "lazy" to do so. You do not know the things that go on in my life. I was probably exhausted from work (it was a tough week, even though I'm only part-time), school (four classes), parenting, and other stuff. I'm human and therefore not perfect.

By the way, my neighbors are very understanding and not judgmental. I've gone by, apologized, taken cookies, and we've all had a good laugh.

Once again, and I should have learned my lesson way before this, I must be careful what I post. Even the most innocent post is liable to draw criticism. That makes me very sad.
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Old 08-18-2007, 10:53 AM   #29
Limey
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First off, the dogs were in your neighbour's garden, so the garden isn't secure.

Second, you say that the 'bad thing' was you couldn't 'punish' Molly, as it was too late. Who's fault was it that Molly was unsupervised?

Third, yes I do believe your choices are wrong and I'm not the only one - take a look here:
http://www.goodnewsforpets.com/Articles.asp?ID=147

Fourth, I'm sure your dogs KNOW when to back off - I think I'd back off too, if I was going to get an electric shock (no matter how mild).

The RSPCA has campaigned successfully here to get the Police to stop using these horrible devices - ask yourself, if they're too cruel to use on a fully-grown German Shepherd, what the hell risk are you running using them on an immature puppy?

Let's just hope your vet is good at treating burns.

For goodness sake, go to the hardware store and get that garden properly secured - I'm more interested in the welfare of your puppy than arguing the toss.

I really wish you'd bin those collars.
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Old 08-18-2007, 10:54 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by auburnchick View Post
Goodness! The funny part of the story was the retrieval of the dog. Y'all have managed to pull out one thing and totally turn it on me. I don't find disciplining a dog funny. It's work. And I am doing that work in many areas of my dog training (teaching them not to jump on people, housetraining, etc.). The collar is one tool in the yard training.

I have two collars. One collar's battery wasn't working, so I could not use it immediately on the little one. The other collar was working, so I thought if I put it on the older dog, and if he didn't go under the fence, the younger one would follow suit. The other collar apparently had a dead battery too. But the night before I found out, I had ordered new batteries (which arrived last night...two days!).

As you can see, I was trying. I had blocked the hole, and the dogs had not disturbed anything. Oh, and the next door neighbors behind me are very nice and non-judgmental.

Once again, and I should have learned my lesson way before this, I must be careful what I post. Even the most innocent post is liable to draw criticism. That makes me very sad.



Aw don't feel bad! To be honest, my very first thought was "hey, what's up with that?" but it can happen to best of us...I sure as heck NEVER thought it would happen to me! Twelve foot privacy fence, padlocked gate, etc. I just didn't take into account my mom who was in the first stages of Alzheimers leaving the gate open!

Yes, I am all for training, and like I said, I probably do much stricter and formal training than most folks but dogs are opportunists! And many are escape artists of the first degree!

Heck! I know a woman whose pitbull escaped the house by destroying her A/C! You can't flame a person who left her dog at home in a nice air conditioned environment, can you?
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