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Old 03-14-2005, 01:41 AM   #1
KellyK
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Double-knit hat help
I LOVE this hat, but the pattern would have me double-knitting in what sounds like a fairly inefficient way...going around each row twice, slipping the st's inbetween.

Is there a kind, generous soul (Im suckin' up!) out there in KH land who, out of the sweetness of his or her little heart, would give me some tips on converting this pattern to the method Amy does in the videos and on circular needles?

Muah muah muah!!
(those are smooches)
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:22 PM   #2
KellyK
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Im thinking that I might get more replies if I was more specific with my questions:

Would this pattern work the same on circulars?

Would the cast on be any different? I think the pattern confuses me because it would have me casting on in only one color. Do you think it would work if I casted on with both colors, held as one, then began using the kA-pB method above?

Lastly, and maybe most importantly, how do the decreases work when double-knitting with this method?
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:00 PM   #3
beldaraan
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Amy has a video for double knitting, but I don't know how to answer the other questions. Her video is in the advanced section.
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:37 PM   #4
KellyK
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Originally Posted by beldaraan
Amy has a video for double knitting
Thanks, Beldie...my original question was for help in coverting the pattern to the method in Amy's video....her method looks much more efficient than the one described in the pattern.
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Old 03-14-2005, 08:15 PM   #5
happenin
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Kelly, have you worked dk before? (I haven't yet, but am, among other things reading about it right now. So if anything here sounds really idiotic here, that's why.)

Having mentioned that I've not yet personally done dk myself, perhaps what I have learned by research might be useful to you, even if you do have some dk time under your belt. Or maybe this thread will teach me, or perhaps both of us, something along the way.

I came across the About.com heart pattern Amy uses in the video and the instructions at About.com totally blew me away. See a final note about this in the 2nd last paragraph, as this "little detail" so casually referred to over at About.com is one of the "little very important things" that distinguishes this web site from all others. For the reason explained near the bottom of this message, I'm really glad Amy used the pattern in her video, since it gave me an even greater appreciation for this highly informative website.

If you noticed in the video, she holds up the work and expands the body of the piece, showing that it is an open work tube. The sides, bottom and top are closed. If I understand correctly, in dk there are 2 basic types of tubes, open and closed work. I believe the pattern called for a cast on that closed the bottom end.

I took a look at the hat pattern in question. In the opinion of this novice, it looks like the pattern calls for an open work technique for at least the top part, judging from the description of how it's closed.

Assuming it's a closed cast on, the Row 1 & 2 instructions have me a little confused at the moment (i.e.- just how the heck does she expect you to rework the same row if you don't turn?!) I would imagine a lot of people would start wondering if there's another way to work the pattern after seeing that first set of instructions.

In answer to your question about circulars, considering they are called for in the pattern and some personal experience working circulars as straights, I wouldn't think circulars would make a difference either. The pattern instructions, however confusing they may seem to me at the moment do indicate where to join and start working in the round.

Perhaps you weren't thrown so much by Row 1, as by Row 2....uh, like how am I supposed to slip a color I haven't even picked up yet? So your question about working both strands in the cast-on make a lot of sense to me!!!

So now that I've shown the world just how ignorant I am about dk, I'd like to make amends by suggesting to you (and others) what I am about to embark on myself. Aside from writing here, I'm working a few small projects for the upcoming holidays and yet to really sit down, absorb and work through the following EXCELLENT resource.

I would suggest taking a look for what is considered the consummate resource on the topic of DK, created by a person who has been described as an absolute genius on the subject. The story of how she developed her techniques in the Introduction is incredible and, well worth anyone's limited time to read it. I highly suggest you look for "Notes on Double Knitting" by Beverly Royce, from Schoolhouse Press, edited by Meg Swansen. This is a book worth reading from front to back.

I mentioned the book to Amy a few weeks ago and promised to get back to her about some details in the book, once I've absorbed it. Apparently Amy has met Meg and had some sort of discussion about rare books, like the one to which I refer.

Since the book is out of print and you're likely to fall over when you see the price at the few places you might find it (even on ebay); I highly suggest you do what I'm doing, check your local library and interlibrary loan for it and make a copy. I promise you, you won't be sorry.

From what I can already see, this is an invaluable resource on the topic. In fact, I've never seen any book quite like it on any subject. I cannot for the life of me figure out why this book hasn't been reprinted?! :thinking: Though Amy reassured me that there are some others out there that are even more rare and pricey.

Judging from a very quick reference to this book, which I'm privileged to have on loan (there's only 1 available copy in my entire state), it appears the Row #1 technique being described is called "Pattern Stitch #3" on page 15 of the book and is worked from the front side. On the same page, Row #2 is referred to as "Pattern Stitch #2" and is worked from the back side. Each of these stitches work the tube right side out, which makes sense as the hat's picture looks like stockinette (as does the heart pattern in the video).

Each of the methods in the book describe a cast on for working a closed tube, with a cast on of either your regular one, used in straight knitting or an invisible one. 2 different methods are included on pages 17 & 18 of the book. I'd say an invisible one is assumed in the hat pattern? A provisional cast on is casually mentioned at About.com (and a LONG search of the site for it provided very unhelpful information, leaving me even more confused), and blew me away so badly, I could only hope to find a better explanation of the pattern and technique elsewhere. Note to pattern instruction developers/contributors: As much as we really appreciate your kind service, never assume your users assume to know anything ahead of time. Make it clear what you're doing and HOW, by providing a few links to the additional building block skills which may be necessary to get the job done correctly THE FIRST TIME!. [HUGE sigh] Oooh, I feel so much better now, thanks for letting me get this off of my chest!!!

Gaaawd, I hope this long message is at least somewhat helpful for you!
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:21 PM   #6
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Hi Kelly,

You have some great ideas there. :D

Yes, you can knit this pattern using the stranding technique that Amy shows in her video. If you are happier with doing colour stranding then that is what you should do. :D

Quote:
Would the cast on be any different? I think the pattern confuses me because it would have me casting on in only one color. Do you think it would work if I casted on with both colors, held as one, then began using the kA-pB method above?
Give it a whirl and let us know what you think! If you cast on with both colours held as one, then you'll just cast on 81 (or half the number of total stitches that you plan to cast on, and then KA PB off that - sounds very efficient to me!). You'll also have to make sure that the colours will be AB AB AB AB paired as you cast on, but if you can do it, it should work just fine.

In the pattern, which starts with a cast on in one colour, you DO get a rim in colour A on the reverse side of your hat (I rather liked it, but I can see that others mightn't). Doing it your way (2 colour cast on) might eliminate that.

The only advantage I can see to casting on in one colour is that you can effectively hide the join in the round? :thinking:

Finally, if you're going to knit with two strands, then you can join in the round immediately on the first round.

Quote:
Lastly, and maybe most importantly, how do the decreases work when double-knitting with this method?
:thinking:

OK, here's an example from the first decrease row in the pattern:

Quote:
Begin decreases:
Color A: *(K1, bring yarn forward, slip 1, bring yarn back) 7 times, slip next stitch (color A) purlwise, place next stitch (color B) on cable needle and hold at back, place first stitch back on left needle and knit it together with next stitch (both stitches should be color A), bring yarn to front, place color B stitch back from cable needle onto left needle, slip both color B stitches purlwise, bring yarn back*, repeat * to * around
Color B: *(slip next stitch purlwise, bring yarn forward, P1, bring yarn back) 7 times, slip next stitch purlwise (should be the stitch you decreased above), bring yarn forward, P2tog (both stitches should be color B), bring yarn back*, repeat * to * around
You should now have 144 stitches.
To do it stranded the way Amy is demonstrating in her video, you'd go:

*(KA PB) 7 times, slip next stitch (color A) purlwise, place next stitch (color B) on cable needle and hold at back, place first stitch back on left needle and knit it together with next stitch (both stitches should be color A), place color B stitch back from cable needle onto left needle and purl it together with next stitch*, repeat * to * around
You should now have 144 stitches.

And so on. The knit decreases are alway K2togs, and the corresponding purl decreases for the reverse colour are always P2togs.

Other tips:
*When you get to the stripes, remember to deal with the jogs (however you prefer to do it) because the pattern doesn't mention it.

*Just trying to remember and get my logic in order when looking at that pattern. I cast on more stitches because I used a smaller size needle. If you need to cast on more stitches too, I think you have to cast on extra stitches in multiples of 18 (9 for each colour) so that the decreases work out at the end.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:42 AM   #7
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OMG, Happenin & Salsa!
THANK YOU SO MUCH for all the time you took to respond to my question! I will take BOTH pieces of advice.....Happenin's to do a library search for that amazing book, and Salsa's to get me through this particular project.

SMOOCHES to both of you!!
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:47 AM   #8
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Nice answer Salsa!

I'm not an expert at double knitting. I'm itching to get my hands on that book Happenin was referring to, I have a lot to learn. To warn you, Meg was saying that that book doesn't use the technique I use in the video, which I got out of the also-out-of-print Principles of Knitting. Meg was saying someone should make a book on DK with that technique, that it's in high demand. DK really gets your head spinning; at least it does mine! :rollseyes: But it's sooooo cool!

Your ideas, and Salsa's instructions, sound right-on. It's new territory for me, so I can only go: ":thinking: hmmm, sure, that sounds right...."

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:49 AM   #9
KellyK
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Smooches to you, too, Amy!
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:32 AM   #10
happenin
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Kelly, glad I could be at least of some small help. It sounds like salsa knows her stuff. I'm not surprised

Years ago, I was told (and have seen) how legendary European ladies are with this and other techniques....I have a good story about this, but since it's not specific to dk, I'll save it for another time.

Quote:
To warn you, Meg was saying that that book doesn't use the technique I use in the video, which I got out of the also-out-of-print Principles of Knitting.
In follow-up....

Right, Beverly Royce developed her own method. Here's Meg's Editor's Notes quote from the book:

Quote:
"Beverly was born in 1918 in Mountain View, Arkansas. She developed her unique method of double-knitting in isolation; unaware of it's existence and practice in Europe at the time."
Once you read Beverly's Letter at the beginning of the book, you'll see how humble and unassuming this lady was. She too acknowledges the wisdom and skill of the Europeans (in this case one from the UK).

Beverly had apparently developed her technique in 1956. Some years later, she finally found someone sharing enough to discuss the craft with at a YS, happened to show an English lady a sample of her work; the woman immediately recognized this was a dk unlike any she'd seen before and asked her how she did it. Thus, Beverly realized people outside of her own world were actually doing it another way.

Central to Beverly's technique is something called a "Slip-Knit" procedure, which takes you twice across the row. Once I reread this passage a few min's ago, I couldn't help but think that perhaps the blog writer of the hat pattern in question is a disciple of Beverly's technique....considering the Row 1 & 2 instructions.

Interestingly, Beverly reports that she realized then she didn't even know how to knit in the normal, accepted mode?! Later, while doing research (in a local library no less), she chose to refer to a regular knitting book from England "Mary Thomas's Knitting Book". Unbelieveable.

I think the story gives inspiration to knitters of all interests and skill levels....be they brave or otherwise. To me the moral is: "try something new and different to you, it probably won't be a brand new technique, but just maybe it will be, and if so, the world might very well benefit."

Or maybe I should just mind my own business on this topic, read and learn the book, try the procedures out a few times, explore the European alternatives and then KNOW for sure. LOL
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