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Old 03-19-2008, 11:24 AM   #11
Luvmyrottnboy
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Originally Posted by maniago View Post
What must be remember, all dogs are designer dogs. Whether, designed for designed for hunting, guarding or just keeping fleas off Victorian Nobility.
Not the same thing. You are quite correct that the breeds we know today were bred for a specific purpose.

What we are seeing today is indiscrimant breeding to make $$$.

For instance my dog. He is a Rottweiler, a herding and draft dog. There is a distinct standard for his breed (and all breeds).

My dog is so far out of standard it is crazy! He has a long coat, he is too big, he couldn't herd his way out of a paper bag. he has hip and elbow displaysia, and it cost me $2000 to have his entropic eye corrected...all genetic issues from bad breeding. But is he beautiful? Heck yes, look at him! But he should never, ever be bred.

He came out of an unethical back yard breeder who sold him to his original owner as a "rare, long haired Rottweiler who could bring in much $$$ if used for stud". When the "patsy" found out he was worthless for stud fees he ended up in a shelter.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:29 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Luvmyrottnboy View Post
What we are seeing today is indiscrimant breeding to make $$$.

For instance my dog. He is a Rottweiler, a herding and draft dog. There is a distinct standard for his breed (and all breeds).


He came out of an unethical back yard breeder who sold him to his original owner as a "rare, long haired Rottweiler who could bring in much $$$ if used for stud". When the "patsy" found out he was worthless for stud fees he ended up in a shelter.
Agreed! One of my Boxers snout is much to long, coat to thin and long, she also loves to hunt and stalk birds(not a boxer trait). We love her just the same and believe in spaying and neutering as soon as possible. BYB's are the worst of human kind.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:35 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by maniago View Post
What must be remembered, all dogs are designer dogs. Whether, designed for designed for hunting, guarding or just keeping fleas off Victorian Nobility.
Originally Posted by maniago View Post
Agreed! One of my Boxers snout is much to long, coat to thin and long, she also loves to hunt and stalk birds(not a boxer trait). We love her just the same and believe in spaying and neutering as soon as possible. BYB's are the worst of human kind.

Your boxers are GORGEOUS! The thing is we LOVE our pets no matter what
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:40 AM   #14
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Hmmn...at least with most cross bred dogs, they were achieved by "natural" conception. I wonder how these cats were created?

In a test tube? Or was some poor cat subjected to mating with a jungle cat? And are these cats like mules now? Sterile? Or can they reproduce?
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:03 PM   #15
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All I'm saying is that it's easy to split hairs when making comparisons between this breed and that breed or why, how, when someone obtains a pet. I think we could go down the line and find a so-called "unethical" reason that led to each and every breed of dog or cat. I mean, is it really ethical to cross breed a dog to make it bigger and stronger just so it can do work for humans? Let alone the fact that that increased size leads to hip dysplasia. (Just making a point here, I don't think a Rottie is unethical!)

I would never pay $20K for a cat, so I'm certainly not propagating it's breeding, but I can't honestly say it's wrong when I don't have an issue with Rottweilers either. Just because the Rottie has been here longer, doesn't mean it's better.

I'm getting a puppy in 6 weeks. Is it wrong that I'm not getting it from a shelter? He's 2 weeks old, born to a friend's dog and they don't want to keep the pups, or sell them (even though they're pure bred), so I'm taking one.

All that matters to me is how the animal is treated, regardless of where it comes from.
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:28 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Silver View Post
All I'm saying is that it's easy to split hairs when making comparisons between this breed and that breed or why, how, when someone obtains a pet. I think we could go down the line and find a so-called "unethical" reason that led to each and every breed of dog or cat. I mean, is it really ethical to cross breed a dog to make it bigger and stronger just so it can do work for humans? Let alone the fact that that increased size leads to hip dysplasia. (Just making a point here, I don't think a Rottie is unethical!)

I would never pay $20K for a cat, so I'm certainly not propagating it's breeding, but I can't honestly say it's wrong when I don't have an issue with Rottweilers either. Just because the Rottie has been here longer, doesn't mean it's better.

I'm getting a puppy in 6 weeks. Is it wrong that I'm not getting it from a shelter? He's 2 weeks old, born to a friend's dog and they don't want to keep the pups, or sell them (even though they're pure bred), so I'm taking one.

All that matters to me is how the animal is treated, regardless of where it comes from.

OK, I think we are kind of agreeing but also kind of not

Anyway, what I think is wrong is to fool around with an established breed (cat or dog) if it isn't to make the breed better. By better I mean healthier, good temperament, good genetics, etc.

My dog is such a good example. One of the things that is RUINING Rotties is that they are being (and have been for a long while) bred by unethical breeders to be bigger than the standard. And you are very right about this causing orthopedic problems.

When "101 Dalmations" first came out years ago, Dalmations were bred fast and furious to keep up with the demand...they were the latest fad. Thousands ended up in shelters because of temperament problems.

Are you wrong to take your friend's puppy? No. I am sure you will give it a great home and lots of love.

Was your friend wrong to breed? YES. Being a pure breed is NOT enough.

Off the top of my head a Code of Ethics Breeder will/must do the following:

1. Health Clearances on sire and dam pertaining to breed - hips, elbows, eyes, heart. NOT cheap. They will also check on health clearances of the lines of both.

2. Ensure that both sire and dam are titled in either conformation, obedience, agility, schutzhund, etc, depending on the breed. Titled dogs not only are in the physical standard the also have a sound temperament. The best of the best makes the breed better.

3. The breeder will interview prospective buyers and pick the pup FOR them.

4. The breeder will guarantee the pup FOR LIFE. Say, you buy a pup, that turns out, when grown, is wired wrong and despite training is impossibly aggressive. The breeder WILL refund your money and take the dog back. The breeder will also put the dog down.


I bet some of you think it is bit "much". Considering the state we are in now regarding homeless animals and breed specific legislation no, it isn't.

Not even close.
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:52 PM   #17
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Well lemme just say this, my friend isn't a "breeder" per se. She's not selling puppies and while it may not have been the best decision to let her two dogs mate (accident or not), all the pups have future homes. And the female will be spayed soon. So maybe, no harm done?

Regardless of my puppy's pure bred status, it's not like I'm going to have him registered and don't care how well he fits the standard mold. Just like your Cyrus doesn't fit their mold of perfect, but does fit yours.

We do both agree that all animals should be loved and cared for though, so
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:59 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Silver View Post
Well lemme just say this, my friend isn't a "breeder" per se. She's not selling puppies and while it may not have been the best decision to let her two dogs mate (accident or not), all the pups have future homes. And the female will be spayed soon. So maybe, no harm done?

Regardless of my puppy's pure bred status, it's not like I'm going to have him registered and don't care how well he fits the standard mold. Just like your Cyrus doesn't fit their mold of perfect, but does fit yours.

We do both agree that all animals should be loved and cared for though, so
YUP! back at ya
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:43 PM   #19
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Hm, I actually think that the crazy high price tag is a good thing. If those cats were cheap, everyone would get one, and they would be bred like crazy. But, because it's so high, and they sell so few, the breeders are able to have a much greater quality control standard.
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:33 PM   #20
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I'm concerned about the fact that they are using a couple of breeds of wildcats to produce the Ashera. The article mentions a similar breed called the Bengal, but fails to mention that the Bengal is--generally speaking--a wildish cat that is not suited for the typical homeowner (saw a program about them awhile back). Wild animals have very wild instincts and it usually takes a number of generations to develop a more docile/domestic breed from wild stock.

I, like a few others here, am bothered by the number of irresponsible souls who snag a couple of poor quality animals to breed rapid-fire for whatever cash they can get, not caring about the end result. That sort of breeding is very damaging to any breed. Look at German Shepherds and Rottwielers-- hip dysplasia is practially pandemic in the breeds these days. It's appalling that the breeds have gone downhill to this point. I guess that is the main reason I am leery these days of any 'designer' pet.
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